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The Radio 3 Boards > The Music Boards > Music Through The Ages > 20th Century > Split from the Riegger Thread: Politics and Music
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Author Topic: Split from the Riegger Thread: Politics and Music  (Read 1794 times)
Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #105 on: 14:14:22, 15-12-2007 »
Although I agree that the text-bound nature of this forum lends itself most easily to discussing the text of the 9th's last movement, Baz..   it was you yourself who was insisting firmly upon the music (and not the text) as being the thing incapable of anything other than abstract ideas.

May I therefore politely direct you towards, ehem, the MUSIC of the 9th, rather than its text? 

I am off to the Korova Milk-Bar for the evening, but will be back a bit later Smiley
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martle
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« Reply #106 on: 14:17:02, 15-12-2007 »
Blimey, Baz! That text isn't political??  Shocked
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Baz
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« Reply #107 on: 14:36:04, 15-12-2007 »
Quote from: Ian Pace on 14:10:21, 15-12-2007
Who says Christianity isn't political? But, if calling for the defeat of those who have power for purely hereditary reasons isn't political, then what is?

This "splinter" thread seems (as the one it eventually replaced) to ask only rhetorical questions. One further example is here presented (above): "Who says Christianity isn't political?".

While rhetorical questions are normally defined as questions that require no answer, we should perhaps reword it so that Mr Pace can give a simple and clear answer. Let's try this...

How is Christianity 'political' as opposed to being spiritually doctrinal?

I cannot think that the basis of Schiller's Ode to Joy deserves to be debased to the extent that it is to be viewed alongside those who argue for the abolition of the House of Lords!

Baz
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Baz
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« Reply #108 on: 14:37:58, 15-12-2007 »
Quote from: martle on 14:17:02, 15-12-2007
Blimey, Baz! That text isn't political??  Shocked

I only asked for you to show me how it WAS! That's all.  Smiley

Baz
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Daniel
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« Reply #109 on: 14:47:58, 15-12-2007 »
Quote from: Reiner Torheit on 10:38:17, 15-12-2007
Let's have another Beethovenian example that we'll all know - the Pastoral Symphony. It's programmatic, certainly - the composer has been kind enough to tell us what different sections of it refer to.  But is it successful in achieving what the composer intended?  I'd say that it is 100% successful.  We all hear the storm.  We all hear the calm after the storm.  Once we admit this, we can't then say it's "abstract" when it suits us to do so Smiley

Portraying a storm in music is a very different thing to communicating a political message though isn't it? A storm, like music, is a sensous, physical experience. Words are not part of its expression. A political message needs words or images (or at least some extra-musical context) to be communicated doesn't it? I agree that people listening to the Eroica at the time of its creation may have felt the revolutionary zeal that fired Beethoven's creativity, but only because they had the context to bring as a kind of interpretation of the notes. The notes could not say it themselves. A book could, a film could. A song could, as it often does, and its message can can be powerfully heightened by the music.

If people are saying that music can experienced as a political comment if it has a political context for the listener to bring to the music, then I think I'd agree. But if one wants to listen to it without any political thoughts in your mind, then there is nothing in the notes themselves that is telling you that you should be having such thoughts.
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Baz
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« Reply #110 on: 14:48:44, 15-12-2007 »
Quote from: Reiner Torheit on 14:14:22, 15-12-2007
Although I agree that the text-bound nature of this forum lends itself most easily to discussing the text of the 9th's last movement, Baz..   it was you yourself who was insisting firmly upon the music (and not the text) as being the thing incapable of anything other than abstract ideas.

May I therefore politely direct you towards, ehem, the MUSIC of the 9th, rather than its text? 

I am off to the Korova Milk-Bar for the evening, but will be back a bit later Smiley

I should have thought, Reiner, that by now you would have realised that the ONLY thing that matters to me is the MUSIC!  Huh

My problem (and the issue for which I here seek clarification) is the insertion of the concept of "politics". Ollie has dug up one short extract (4 or 5 lines) that seem to him "political". Martle merely exclaims "And you don't think that text is political?!". Ian Pace questions only the view the Christianity isn't political (without attempting to define either nouns, thereby offering a perceived connection). Now you rap my knuckles for ignoring the only thing that has ever mattered to me.

Sorry folks! But you are doing a superb collective job of confusing me, and keeping me in suspense.

Baz  Sad
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Ron Dough
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« Reply #111 on: 14:51:36, 15-12-2007 »
Quote from: Baz on 14:36:04, 15-12-2007

How is Christianity 'political' as opposed to being spiritually doctrinal?

Baz

Might the answer to that not be that once any religion has a large enough following, its powers are used to political effect? Certainly at the time of the Crusades (not to mention what might be considered as their second round now) both Christianity and Islam had political sway as well as religious conviction. Until the Reformation, Papal influence lay behind every throne in Europe. Religion isn't 'political' as opposed to spiritually doctrinal: the moment it becomes organised, surely it's both.
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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #112 on: 14:56:04, 15-12-2007 »
Quote from: Baz on 14:48:44, 15-12-2007

I should have thought, Reiner, that by now you would have realised that the ONLY thing that matters to me is the MUSIC!  Huh


But why, then, have you quoted the TEXT of the Ode To Joy in full, and begun to talk to us about Schiller?  Huh  Huh   Huh
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
-  Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
Baz
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« Reply #113 on: 15:00:39, 15-12-2007 »
Quote from: Reiner Torheit on 14:56:04, 15-12-2007
Quote from: Baz on 14:48:44, 15-12-2007

I should have thought, Reiner, that by now you would have realised that the ONLY thing that matters to me is the MUSIC!  Huh


But why, then, have you quoted the TEXT of the Ode To Joy in full, and begun to talk to us about Schiller?  Huh  Huh   Huh

Because I was replying to martle who claimed that its text embodied some kind of "political" message that - he felt - permeated the entire infrastructure of the MUSIC! I'm only trying - by going back to basics with the text - to see what on earth he could have meant.

Baz !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sad Sad Sad Sad Sad Sad Sad Sad
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Don Basilio
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« Reply #114 on: 15:37:18, 15-12-2007 »
Quote from: Ron Dough on 14:51:36, 15-12-2007
Quote from: Baz on 14:36:04, 15-12-2007

How is Christianity 'political' as opposed to being spiritually doctrinal?

Baz

Might the answer to that not be that once any religion has a large enough following, its powers are used to political effect? Certainly at the time of the Crusades (not to mention what might be considered as their second round now) both Christianity and Islam had political sway as well as religious conviction. Until the Reformation, Papal influence lay behind every throne in Europe. Religion isn't 'political' as opposed to spiritually doctrinal: the moment it becomes organised, surely it's both.

I haven't been following this in detail, but I must comment.  Because Christianity involves how human beings relate to one another, it is bound to have a political dimension.  Even if it has no political power it can be critical of power structures.

To mention some political movements which have had a strong Christian element in their inspiration:

The Tolpuddle Martyrs - good Methodists
The US Civil Rights movement.
Solidarity in Poland
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Baz
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« Reply #115 on: 15:53:33, 15-12-2007 »
Quote from: Ron Dough on 14:51:36, 15-12-2007
Quote from: Baz on 14:36:04, 15-12-2007

How is Christianity 'political' as opposed to being spiritually doctrinal?

Baz

Might the answer to that not be that once any religion has a large enough following, its powers are used to political effect? Certainly at the time of the Crusades (not to mention what might be considered as their second round now) both Christianity and Islam had political sway as well as religious conviction. Until the Reformation, Papal influence lay behind every throne in Europe. Religion isn't 'political' as opposed to spiritually doctrinal: the moment it becomes organised, surely it's both.

A proper reply would need yet another thread that bears more upon philosophy and ethics (and I don't want to start one!). While the "powers" of religion (at least in a non-secular state) are obvious, there is still a clear distinction to be drawn between the "religious" and the "political" - not least in the ways in which music becomes involved.

There are many obvious cases where music is "used" to give kudos, quality, or 'street cred', such as (say) in adverts. The same happens in politics (ranging from a rousing chorus of Land of Hope and Glory at the Tory Party Conference, to Jerusalem at the last night of the Proms). Unlike politics, however, religion causes a two-way dialogue: a) services need music and musicians (paid to provide it), and b) musicians so employed (or even not so employed) derived inspiration from religious texts or ideas in creating thousands upon thousands of sacred musical compositions.

What is (rather idiotically in my view) being posited here, however, is that like Religion, POLITICS also had a reciprocal influence, and that (as with religious ideas) "politics" was not only a system that adopted music to bolster its popularity, but it also inspired musicians to compose (rather like religion had always done).

So far - in my view - the evidence for this absurd notion that has been provided is patchy, insignificant, and unconvincing. Even where spurious evidence has been posited, it seems to me to relate more with a "spirit" than with a "political action" or "political view". Ode to Joy seems to me a good example to show how Man's spirit is much more worth celebrating than any political chicanery that has been cobbled together by a here-today-gone-tomorrow political nut.

The only times when "politics" and "religion" come together historically seem to be at those moments when politicians seize the initiative by the scruff of the neck and usurp and abuse the perceived religious status quo for purely political (and dastardly) ends.

Baz
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Baz
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« Reply #116 on: 16:13:54, 15-12-2007 »
Quote from: Don Basilio on 15:37:18, 15-12-2007
Quote from: Ron Dough on 14:51:36, 15-12-2007
Quote from: Baz on 14:36:04, 15-12-2007

How is Christianity 'political' as opposed to being spiritually doctrinal?

Baz

Might the answer to that not be that once any religion has a large enough following, its powers are used to political effect? Certainly at the time of the Crusades (not to mention what might be considered as their second round now) both Christianity and Islam had political sway as well as religious conviction. Until the Reformation, Papal influence lay behind every throne in Europe. Religion isn't 'political' as opposed to spiritually doctrinal: the moment it becomes organised, surely it's both.

I haven't been following this in detail, but I must comment.  Because Christianity involves how human beings relate to one another, it is bound to have a political dimension.  Even if it has no political power it can be critical of power structures.

To mention some political movements which have had a strong Christian element in their inspiration:

The Tolpuddle Martyrs - good Methodists
The US Civil Rights movement.
Solidarity in Poland

You are right to draw these parallels, but wrong in equating the "religious" with the "political". The struggles you mention all resulted from the clash between the "religious will" and the "political won't" (demonstrating in each case how the religious and the political were in actual opposition to each other).

It is therefore illogical to bring politics into religion (or, indeed, religion into politics), even though the tensions that arise between the two are clearly obvious in the examples you cite.

Baz
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #117 on: 16:23:36, 15-12-2007 »
Quote from: Baz on 13:49:12, 15-12-2007
Beggars become Princes' brothers
 Where thy gentle wing abides.

Be embraced, millions!
 This kiss to the entire world!
 
 Joy all creatures drink
 At nature's bosoms;
 All, Just and Unjust,
 Follow her rose-petalled path.
 
Endure courageously, millions!
Endure for the better world!

The account of our misdeeds be destroyed!
Reconciled the entire world!

Eternally may last all sworn Oaths,
Truth towards friend and enemy,
Men's pride before Kings' thrones--
Brothers, even it if meant our Life and blood,
Give the crowns to those who earn them,
Defeat to the pack of liars!

Close the holy circle tighter,
Swear by this golden wine:
To remain true to the Oath,
Swear it by the Judge above the stars!
Delivery from tyrants' chains,
Generosity also towards the villain,
Hope on the deathbeds,
Mercy from the final judge!

Well, it's hardly just 5 lines, Baz. Not to put too fine a point on it, it has liberté, égalité and fraternité written all over it.

The clearest reference to all that in the music for me is in Beethoven's mixture of forms and 'levels' - popular song, boozy march, heavenly adoration (no, he doesn't manage an atheist vision... but he does manage a god before whom all are equal).

But perhaps you'll call that 'patchy, insignificant, unconvincing and spurious' as well. That's your call, but I don't think you're understanding all of Beethoven's or Schiller's message in doing so.
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martle
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« Reply #118 on: 16:26:17, 15-12-2007 »
Sorry to keep you waiting, Baz. I had to, er, go and do other things.

Now, I know your infirmity and dodderiness might prevent you from seeing this straight away  Wink but I cannot for the life of me see how these lines from the Ode are NOT political, if by 'political' we mean anything like the relationaship between the desires, rights, responsibilities, freedoms and aspirations of the individual, those of collectives, and the mediation, negotiation and management of cicumstances in which those two things come into conflict. (That's what I mean by it, anyway.)


 Beggars become Princes' brothers
 Where thy gentle wing abides.

Run, brothers, run your race,
Joyful, as a hero going to conquest.

Endure courageously, millions!
Endure for the better world!
Above the starry canopy
A great God will reward you.

The account of our misdeeds be destroyed!
Reconciled the entire world!
Brothers, above the starry canopy
God judges as we judged.

Resolve and courage for great suffering,
Help there, where innocence weeps,
Eternally may last all sworn Oaths,
Truth towards friend and enemy,
Men's pride before Kings' thrones--
Brothers, even it if meant our Life and blood,
Give the crowns to those who earn them,
Defeat to the pack of liars!

Delivery from tyrants' chains,
Generosity also towards the villain,
Hope on the deathbeds,
Mercy from the final judge!


Anyway,  the Music: why did Beethoven light on the extraordinary structure for the final movement that he did? How do we account for it? For me, it's about an almost literal universality (B's political ideal I suppose - fraternity and justice and equality). The movement veers dizzyingly between modes of discourse. It's a set of variations ostensibly, but some are cast in the harmonic and getural syntax of high classicism, some in the style of Baroque oratorio, and one or two (like the Turkish march) in vernacular or 'popular' idioms. There are interludes which are modelled on the style of operatic recitative, and there are literal quotations from each of the other three movements of the symphony. It's Beethoven's whole world, crammed into one piece, teeming with the variety, the inconsistencies, the refinements and the crudities of Beethoven's own real world. It contains the past (stylistically) the present and the future. He could hardly have dreamt up a better musical metaphor for his own notion of 'democracy'.
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martle
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« Reply #119 on: 16:27:38, 15-12-2007 »
Oops, I see Ollie's said virtually the same thing!
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