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Author Topic: Steve Reich  (Read 1215 times)
Ron Dough
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« Reply #30 on: 12:56:11, 21-05-2008 »

As Bryn foretold earlier, R2, Reich's a composer who splits the membership - sometimes even the same member....

Three Tales is probably the next step on from Different Trains that works for me, particularly in the version with images on the DVD included along with the CD release, though, just like everybody else, I'd probably have to admit that I find him possibly beyond the peak of his trajectory.
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #31 on: 13:03:23, 21-05-2008 »

who splits the membership - sometimes even the same member....

BACK, martle! No pictures please.  Roll Eyes
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richard barrett
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« Reply #32 on: 13:04:20, 21-05-2008 »

(Do you really think of yourself as an 'academic', even now? I'm not sure I do, despite my presence in an 'academy'.)

No I don't in the least, I have more of a square-peg-in-round-hole kind of feeling, and I'd prefer to be out of it altogether than exchange this for anything more "fitting". I just wanted really to let Ron know that my reaction to Reich isn't the result of my current, umm, institutionalisation.
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Ron Dough
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« Reply #33 on: 13:17:44, 21-05-2008 »

Perhaps a hastily mis-chosen epithet, then.

Professional sophisticates, maybe?
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Turfan Fragment
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« Reply #34 on: 15:26:21, 21-05-2008 »

Of course, all REAL academics (?) are round pegs in round holes, square pegs in square holes, or something like that. Nobody around here like that, nope, no way. We're all individualists!

Not me, I'm not!
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Bryn
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« Reply #35 on: 18:16:04, 21-05-2008 »

As Bryn foretold earlier, R2, Reich's a composer who splits the membership - sometimes even the same member....

Three Tales is probably the next step on from Different Trains that works for me, particularly in the version with images on the DVD included along with the CD release, though, just like everybody else, I'd probably have to admit that I find him possibly beyond the peak of his trajectory.

I found Different Trains a problem for years, Ron. My immediate luke-warm reaction was somewhat reinforced by the outraged reaction my negative assessment of the work got from a member of the Jewish Society when I was doing one of my stints as a Student Union sabbatical officer at Middlesex Poly (this was before Richard taught there). Apparently is was ant-Semitic not to admire it. Sad

I first 'got into' it only a couple of years ago, via the arrangement for string orchestra. I now get on well with the string quartet original, especially as recorded by the Bozzinis. The Cave, however, continues to elude me. City Life is a work I find unobjectionable, but nit particularly enticing. Favourites though remain Drumming, Music for 18 Musicians, and Eight Lines, in that order.
« Last Edit: 18:42:05, 21-05-2008 by Bryn » Logged
Ian Pace
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« Reply #36 on: 21:14:03, 21-05-2008 »

I found Different Trains a problem for years, Ron. My immediate luke-warm reaction was somewhat reinforced by the outraged reaction my negative assessment of the work got from a member of the Jewish Society when I was doing one of my stints as a Student Union sabbatical officer at Middlesex Poly (this was before Richard taught there). Apparently is was ant-Semitic not to admire it. Sad
It could equally be said to be anti-Semitic to admire this piece of crass exploitative trash, allowing Reich to cash in on musical Holocaust porn. It's the one quartet that Irvine Arditti flatly refuses to play on grounds of finding it offensive.

If Reich's work once had something going for it (and I'm in two minds about that), he's become a loud, brash, ugly American worker of the system, with that combination of massive arrogance and utter stupidity that can get you elected president of that country.
« Last Edit: 21:33:57, 21-05-2008 by Ian Pace » Logged

'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
martle
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« Reply #37 on: 22:10:46, 21-05-2008 »

Hmm. A little harsh, Ian? I personally can't see how the piece can be considered 'holocaust porn'. It doesn't really take a particularly pronounced view, politically or racially, does it? (For those who don't know it, the verbal content consists of juxtaposed snippets from interviews with train passengers and staff on a) trains crossing the States during the war and b) trains on their way to death camps in Eastern Europe at the same time.) Reich seems to me to be at fairly considerable pains not to pass any kind of judgement on the blatant contrast entailed - in fact, the piece almost seems a-political in that sense, and born, rather, of basic humanitarian concerns.

The music is another matter, and as I said earlier I was quite excited by the possibilities it seemed to open up for Reich's style, although I don't think these have been realised in recent years - which is disappointing.
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Bryn
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« Reply #38 on: 00:37:01, 22-05-2008 »

Hmm. A little harsh, Ian? I personally can't see how the piece can be considered 'holocaust porn'. It doesn't really take a particularly pronounced view, politically or racially, does it? (For those who don't know it, the verbal content consists of juxtaposed snippets from interviews with train passengers and staff on a) trains crossing the States during the war and b) trains on their way to death camps in Eastern Europe at the same time.) Reich seems to me to be at fairly considerable pains not to pass any kind of judgement on the blatant contrast entailed - in fact, the piece almost seems a-political in that sense, and born, rather, of basic humanitarian concerns.

The music is another matter, and as I said earlier I was quite excited by the possibilities it seemed to open up for Reich's style, although I don't think these have been realised in recent years - which is disappointing.

martle, I did not respond earlier to Ian's message as I was not quite sure how to take it. I certainly do not hear Different Trains as some sort of Holiday in the Sun exercise. I take no issue with Reich's choice of subject matter, or the content o the recollections he uses in the different sections, though I do think it has been rather over-hyped on the basis of that content. My problem was with the the way it interacted with my ears and brain. I just did not think it worked very well. It was only after hearing the Lyon/Robertson recording that my perception of it was adjusted somewhat in its favour.
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Ron Dough
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« Reply #39 on: 09:41:45, 22-05-2008 »

Another possible thought regarding Ian's post might be that valid as his political reading of music might be, it doesn't of itself negate the validity of a purely emotional reaction on the part of other listeners.

I'd suggest that most of us have music that we just simply love, which connects directly with some part of our being and affects us whether we like it or not. It's as personal as the people we adore: you can look at a devoted couple and think "what on earth does she see in him?", but outside their relationship such thoughts are frankly irrelevant. Certain music has a power which disarms personal criticism, even when others may see reasons to fault it: an interesting subject to broach on the day which happens to be Wagner's birthday. I adore Bernstein's Mass, for example: I know that viewed objectively it might be considered mawkish, but when I listen to it it connects emotionally - chemically - and in the same way as criticism of a loved one means nothing even should it rehearse accepted faults (and indeed may even increase one's defensiveness), so, no matter what others think about it or other works with which one has this very direct connection, personal reactions are ring-fenced against such external criticism. That's why so much of the vindictive blathering at TOP eventually has no more effect than water on a duck's back: when it comes to individual responses to any art, other's views may be interesting, but at most, in the end, purely peripheral.
« Last Edit: 10:05:05, 22-05-2008 by Ron Dough » Logged
Ruby2
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« Reply #40 on: 13:23:05, 22-05-2008 »

Another possible thought regarding Ian's post might be that valid as his political reading of music might be, it doesn't of itself negate the validity of a purely emotional reaction on the part of other listeners.

I'd suggest that most of us have music that we just simply love, which connects directly with some part of our being and affects us whether we like it or not. It's as personal as the people we adore: you can look at a devoted couple and think "what on earth does she see in him?", but outside their relationship such thoughts are frankly irrelevant. Certain music has a power which disarms personal criticism, even when others may see reasons to fault it: an interesting subject to broach on the day which happens to be Wagner's birthday. I adore Bernstein's Mass, for example: I know that viewed objectively it might be considered mawkish, but when I listen to it it connects emotionally - chemically - and in the same way as criticism of a loved one means nothing even should it rehearse accepted faults (and indeed may even increase one's defensiveness), so, no matter what others think about it or other works with which one has this very direct connection, personal reactions are ring-fenced against such external criticism. That's why so much of the vindictive blathering at TOP eventually has no more effect than water on a duck's back: when it comes to individual responses to any art, other's views may be interesting, but at most, in the end, purely peripheral.
Couldn't agree more - I've been on a train this morning wrestling with some music that different friends have given me and wondering to what extent the identity of the source of recommendation affects my perception of it.

I feel guilty for disagreeing with people whose opinions I normally respect, but then you can never put a finger on what it is about music that defines whether an individual will love it or hate it.

Incidentally I'm starting to really love Music for 18 Musicians.  It's so thick with imagery - listening to it with your eyes shut is almost like dreaming.  Section 10 to me looked like an enormous gyroscope revolving really slowly..

Can anyone tell me what the deep shuddering noise is that fades in and out occasionally?  To me it looks like a triangular piece of flat metal shuffling in from the right and then out again.  I thought it was an electric guitar through a distortion and chorus pedal or something, but that's not one of the listed instruments...

Hoping someone can translate the synaesthesia. Smiley
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richard barrett
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« Reply #41 on: 13:34:33, 22-05-2008 »

I think a thoughtful and nuanced view of music enables the listener to distinguish between aspects of it (or its composer) which one responds to positively and other which one finds in some way unacceptable. As a composition teacher (in the wrong-shaped hole of course  Cool ) I have to do such things all the time with my students' work, and this way of thinking is really only an explicit version of what might come into my mind when coming to terms with any musical experience, and this in turn is a phenomenon by no means restricted to those who spend as much time thinking about music as I do. The idea of "speech-melodies" in Different Trains was an interesting and seemingly promising one. The piece is an interesting one to me for that reason.
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richard barrett
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« Reply #42 on: 13:38:18, 22-05-2008 »

Can anyone tell me what the deep shuddering noise is that fades in and out occasionally? 

The pulsating sound is made of repeated chords scored for female voices, (bass) clarinets and strings.
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ahh
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« Reply #43 on: 18:15:15, 22-05-2008 »

The idea of "speech-melodies" in Different Trains was an interesting and seemingly promising one. The piece is an interesting one to me for that reason.

Yes, it's speech accent melody too, its a long time since I heard the piece, but in my memory its the inflections and pronunciation that stand out. In a sense they outline the diasporic division better than any of the words being spoken. I share something of Ian's reservations about cashing in on Holocaust, however the formal experimentation is indeed promising.

Sticking my neck out for another work beyond 1976, I didn't mind Different Trains' flipside: 'Electric Counterpoint'. It's something about the mise-en-abyme solipsism of the 'star' performer that I quite like.

NB: great album sleeve too (perspective train tracks one side, mirrored by guitar neck on the other)
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autoharp
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« Reply #44 on: 04:21:26, 23-05-2008 »

As Bryn foretold earlier, R2, Reich's a composer who splits the membership - sometimes even the same member....

Here's one split member. I've been involved in various Reich performances over the years and remain wildly enthusiastic about certain pieces whilst severely critical about others. Or parts of others. A few observations . . . mostly critical.

1) Let's kill off the fiction that Reich discovered phasing from tape recorders playing at slightly different speeds. He was involved in the first performance of Terry Riley's In C - indeed it was he who recommended the repeated C pulse to help prevent players from phasing.

2) Reich has moved slowly from piece to piece, sometimes repeating himself (no irony intended) but having grown really pretty slowly over the last 40 odd years. Some pieces are stronger or more effective than others.  Favourites which immediately come to mind are Come Out, Piano phase, Drumming, Music for pieces of wood, Music for 18 musicians and Sextet - yes, all earlier works - although some have weak moments (eg., Music for 18 musicians still sags badly in section 4, even after Reich shortened it). I still have never managed to listen to a complete version of Different trains - doesn't the juxtaposition of trains crossing the USA/trains on their ways to death camps make anybody else wince? The speech melodies are an effective idea, but limited in the hands of Reich: far more interesting in the hands of Rob Davidson and his McLibel piece. Music for mallet instruments, voices + organ is too sugary and Clapping music, whilst a useful rhythmic exercise, I find unbelievably weak, not even useful as a lecture-demonstration piece.

3) There are scores which are badly laid out or even wrongly conceived. The score of Piano phase is frankly useless for those who wish either to perform it (it would be memorised anyway) or who wish to study it: OK, it tells you the pitches, but it's easy to figure those out without a score. I've performed Music for 18 musicians several times with students from the mid-1980s onwards: I made my own score (on 13 pages of  panopus a3) and set of parts which I'm arrogant enough to consider more sensible and user-friendly than Reich's own 234-page score (no, the composer didn't agree - but he was always publicly appreciative and supportive of our performances). The method by which he makes the music available to ensembles outside his own group (for instance, notationally and by using a conductor) seems fundamentally misconceived to me.

4) One important lesson from Drumming -  identical musical material varied only by timbre and register can have a drastically different effect: electrifying on drums, soporific on marimbas and increasingly irritating on glockenspiels. And hear it live if possible (especially by Reich's own group) - Ron is spot on to encourage this! No recording has the same effect. Where I'd disagree with Ron is regarding the last section of Tehillim: if the tutti last section of Drumming was a compositional necessity, the analagous section in Tehillim has always struck me as unacceptably manipulative - "playing to the gallery" (sorry, Ron!).

5) I could bang on about the unfortunate influence that Riley, Reich et al have wielded (not their fault) - think of the hundreds of younger, less discriminating cheap imitators who have churned out acres of junk. But I think I've probably said enough for now. Apologies for the lengthy post. It's intended to stimulate discussion rather than stifle it.
« Last Edit: 04:33:13, 23-05-2008 by autoharp » Logged
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