Now this is where I do largely agree with you, subject to what I write below.

Where you're misfiring here, it seems to me, is in making the assumption that the two categories are somehow mutually exclusive whereas, in fact, they are interdependent; what are emotions if not chemical changes that occur in the brain as a consequence of stimuli and responses thereto? I realise that this sounds a very prosaic way in which to describe emotion, but it's nevertheless true and it does not undermine it - nor, indeed, does it undermine what we usually think of when we use that word. As to the purely intellectual responses, would you not countenance the possibility that the more deeply the intellect can engage in the listening experience, the greater the emotional response as a direct consequence?

I wasn't there at the time, but I very much doubt it.

Given the rate of knots at which Schubert composed, I'd be rather surprised if he found the time to stop and consider either, frankly. Speaking as a composer myself, I can tell you that the sheer amout of mental energy that goes into writing a work, especially a lage-scale one, allows little if any room for such considerations; furthermore, would it not be cynical to do any such thing? Doesn't one's audience have a right to expect the genuine personal article rather than one which might have been meddled with along the way as a consequence of by thoughts like "I wonder what x, y and z will make of this?"

These things can indeed be interesting but I agree that the only intellectual ways in which the listening experience can be enhanced will be down to concentrating on what's going on and why, even if one has learnt to do tht subconsciously so that it doesn't interfere with the listening process.

Best,

Alistair

At this point, by way of a slightly surprising diversion, I'd like to call members' attention to the short thread found here, which (for me at least) sheds a rather interesting and hitherto somewhat unexpected light on one of the contributors to this conversation.

Fair or not, I can safely assert that this "discussion" hasn't got off the level of elementary gainsaying since it started.  I find it hard to take remotely seriously conjectural imaginings about how Mozart might have written his 40th Symphony, and would suggest that when one has to make up quotations to support an argument, then the case has been utterly lost.


I have never said this.  I have no idea where you've extracted this quotation from, but not a word of it is mine.   I wonder why you have attributed this remark to me?  

RT, I think t_i_n was trying to kill two birds with one stone. The 'contrivance' in the second, unattributed, quote was Alistair's, not yours. ;-)

Well let's wait and see - one doesn't have to aspire to the heights of St. Paul to experience a feeling of conversion or persuasion once in one's lifetime does one?

No, of course I don't; indeed, as one might expect, I think the very opposite. I am not, however, the only contributor here who has sensed a degree of unwillingness on SS's part to make due effort to engage with certain present-day composers' music; the fact that, after such effort, much of it may still not affect him positively is quite another matter and I, for one, have no problem whatsoever with his or anyone else's frankness and honesty about that per se.

Yes, of course; I agree entirely with you here. However, is it not then important to try to back up one's suspicions with reasons for them - I don't necessarily say facts, because it would be unfair to expect someone who may not necessarily be a trained musician to have such facts at their disposal, but when someone tells me that they have listened to a fair amount of new music (and let us at no point forget what a broad church that is) and remain unable to engage with most of it for reasons of x, y and z, then I will accept that, however distressing it may be to do so.

It would indeed be so if I or anyone else actually said such a thing, but you appear to be seeking to put words into my mouth and, for the record and for the avoidance of doubt, I have never said or thought any such thing.

I have to say that your remark here is exceedingly unfair and, were I to believe it (and I'm not even saying that I don't, because you evidently seem to do so), I would be deeply concerned about what I may have done or omitted to do. Why do you say this of me and my work? What is your evidence for it? Believe me, I'm not seeking to be combative in asking these questions - I genuinely mean to ask them and hope that you can answer them for me. I do admit that I don't often talk about my music to others, especially when I've not been asked to do so, but any wariness that I may feel about discussing it in detail is not down to secretiveness and certainly not to any kind of patronising attitude but due to the fact that I haven't really got a whole lot to say about it - and I don't want to waffle and either bore or mislead or both. I always hope that my music will manage to say what it has to say in its own right to anyone that can respond to it without me putting words around it some kind of attempt to help it along, but if I fail, that's no one's fault but mine. Anyway, please give me some more detail about how it is that you have concluded that I don't care how my work may affect listeners. In the meantime, I will tell you without equivocation that I do care about that very much; like almost anyone else, however, I cannot predict people's reactions in advance, although I have rarely heard any reactions to my work that have not been of interest to me.

Best,

Alistair

tinners,

Yes.

Thank you for that. If those on the comtemporary music scene were to act as an inward-looking self-congratulatory circle, with the firm conviction that all who didn't see things their way were hoplessly beyond salvation, then the parallels with a religious cult might reasonably be drawn. It's quite obvious from the comments made in this and other threads and boards that most of our contributors have wide tastes and are not fixed solely on new music: it's easy to look outwards. It really isn't so easy to look in though, and as with anything which appears to be a closed circle, there is always likely to be misunderstanding and distrust from those excluded. Simon obviously feels this way, and can, on occasion, become a little carried away in his protestations. He isn't, though, some mindless cultural vandal attacking absolutely everything that has the label of intellectual: I've specifically included the link to the CMoR3 thread above because it caused me to revise my views on his position.

For the first time I sense that he's not completely averse to the proposition, but having difficulty in finding the works that might suit his particular requirements and views, and no doubt becoming frustrated en route. Perhaps he's making things harder for himself by prejudging much of what is on offer, but he's certainly not alone in that (I avoided the music of one contemporary composer for years, since what I'd read about it put me off completely: one day I happened to drop in on a piece of work in the radio which really excited me, and I was staggered when the announcement came that it was by him). Contemporary music, far from being a cult, is a very broad church, and much like other churches, contains factions who hold radically different views and may not always see eye to eye, but surely it's in the interest of every member to attempt to welcome newcomers into the fellowship, even if in the end their particular view of the situation is not totally compatible?

For many people, the path into contemporary music is more a set of stepping stones than a wide easy road. We know that many people see that as a forbidding journey, but I feel that rather than pushing people who have taken the first step back into the water, it might be more helpful to point out the next step that might be useful to them....

I wouldn't argue with that choice for a minute, tinners: indeed, I'd venture to suggest that a fair bit of that composer's music might appeal to him quite directly: if, of course, he did fancy explanation thereafter, the notes on that particular disc are rather well written....