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Author Topic: Has contemporary music now become merely a Religious Cult?  (Read 4453 times)
ahinton
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« Reply #195 on: 23:42:18, 20-11-2007 »

I look forward to it with interest myself, SS!

Best,

Alistair
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George Garnett
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« Reply #196 on: 08:27:34, 21-11-2007 »

Say what you will about this thread, it has produced two "cut out 'n' keep" posts that I'd like to thank the authors for. To save embarrassment though you'll just have to check your ear temperatures if you want to know whose have gone into the Garnett scrapbook. Cool
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Sydney Grew
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« Reply #197 on: 17:20:18, 21-11-2007 »

. . . the last movement of Bach's Keyboard Partita in E Minor BVW 830.

It is marked "Gigue", but in the later version has a time signature of a full circle with a stroke. In the early version (found in the Anna Magdalena Notebook of 1725) it has a Cut-C signature. In both, the music proceeds in semiquavers (grouped in 4s) together with paired quavers, and dotted-quaver/semiquaver figures. At times there are pairs of demisemiquavers embedded in the groups, replacing straight semiquavers.

It is completely incomprehensible!

This is because it doesn't follow the "expected" Gigue rhythm and style. Even if the dotted-quaver/semiquaver pairs are performed as triplets (which one might suppose them to be in the first phrase), there is then no logical way thereafter of fitting the surrounding rhythms around this.

I can't explain it, and continue to wonder what Bach meant by it.
Those Partitas are full of Bach's numerology at its most rampant are they not.

Here for the benefit of Members who do not know the score are two extracts from the curious Gigue with which the Sixth Partita B.W.V. 830 ends, so well described was it not by Madam Ena.



The time signature, consisting of a circle with a vertical line drawn through it, is described somewhere as "The Great Alla Breve." Here it means 4/2 but in the olden days its significance we are told was something rather different - some sort of triple time and we await a specialist who might tell us more.

Now Madam is worried because she can neither see nor hear any triplets. It is true that the admirable Percy Scholes describes the jig in general as "moving along in a merry limp." But he adds that Bach not once but several times gave the name to pieces with 2 or 4 beats. We suppose do we not that Bach here had in mind not so much the limping as the leaping. It was four hops to one of his bars he wanted in this case, that is clear, and within each hop he has two or four beats instead of three. Well! That is no worse than Chaiceffscy and his waltz in quintuple time.

Even to-day if one ventures into one or two nondescript little bars in the back streets of Antwerp or Brussels one may all of a sudden come upon a scrum of twenty or thirty usually fat Flemings ardently bouncing up and down together in a kind of block or pack. This sort of dancing (which we have not encountered elsewhere) is the essence of one kind of jig is it not? They do not mind, as we said, whether there are three or four beats to the hop.

We have listened to Leonhardt's performance of this movement, but he does not play the repeats, and he is rather too slow. He does not conform with our vision of those strenuously bouncing Flemings.

Besides Leonhardt's we have listened to the work played on the piano in four different recordings. The best version is very much faster, but rather regrettably we did not make a note of the player's name.

Does not this Gigue somehow put us be it ever so slightly in mind of Beethoven's Grosse Fugue?

Incidentally we do hope that Madam Ena will soon see her way clear to a return; Mrs. Bucket for instance might might she not offer an appropriate new persona . . . ?
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ahinton
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« Reply #198 on: 18:03:42, 21-11-2007 »

. . . the last movement of Bach's Keyboard Partita in E Minor BVW 830.

It is marked "Gigue", but in the later version has a time signature of a full circle with a stroke. In the early version (found in the Anna Magdalena Notebook of 1725) it has a Cut-C signature. In both, the music proceeds in semiquavers (grouped in 4s) together with paired quavers, and dotted-quaver/semiquaver figures. At times there are pairs of demisemiquavers embedded in the groups, replacing straight semiquavers.

It is completely incomprehensible!

This is because it doesn't follow the "expected" Gigue rhythm and style. Even if the dotted-quaver/semiquaver pairs are performed as triplets (which one might suppose them to be in the first phrase), there is then no logical way thereafter of fitting the surrounding rhythms around this.

I can't explain it, and continue to wonder what Bach meant by it.
Those Partitas are full of Bach's numerology at its most rampant are they not.

Here for the benefit of Members who do not know the score are two extracts from the curious Gigue with which the Sixth Partita B.W.V. 830 ends, so well described was it not by Madam Ena.



The time signature, consisting of a circle with a vertical line drawn through it, is described somewhere as "The Great Alla Breve." Here it means 4/2 but in the olden days its significance we are told was something rather different - some sort of triple time and we await a specialist who might tell us more.

Now Madam is worried because she can neither see nor hear any triplets. It is true that the admirable Percy Scholes describes the jig in general as "moving along in a merry limp." But he adds that Bach not once but several times gave the name to pieces with 2 or 4 beats. We suppose do we not that Bach here had in mind not so much the limping as the leaping. It was four hops to one of his bars he wanted in this case, that is clear, and within each hop he has two or four beats instead of three. Well! That is no worse than Chaiceffscy and his waltz in quintuple time.

Even to-day if one ventures into one or two nondescript little bars in the back streets of Antwerp or Brussels one may all of a sudden come upon a scrum of twenty or thirty usually fat Flemings ardently bouncing up and down together in a kind of block or pack. This sort of dancing (which we have not encountered elsewhere) is the essence of one kind of jig is it not? They do not mind, as we said, whether there are three or four beats to the hop.

We have listened to Leonhardt's performance of this movement, but he does not play the repeats, and he is rather too slow. He does not conform with our vision of those strenuously bouncing Flemings.

Besides Leonhardt's we have listened to the work played on the piano in four different recordings. The best version is very much faster, but rather regrettably we did not make a note of the player's name.

Does not this Gigue somehow put us be it ever so slightly in mind of Beethoven's Grosse Fugue?

Incidentally we do hope that Madam Ena will soon see her way clear to a return; Mrs. Bucket for instance might might she not offer an appropriate new persona . . . ?
Interesting as all of this undoubtedly is and wonderful as the Bach is, what specific relevance is it all supposed to have to the thread topic?

And who is Chaiceffscy?

Best,

Alistair
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Ron Dough
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« Reply #199 on: 18:37:58, 21-11-2007 »

Indeed, Alistair, it is hardly surprising that members occasionally have difficulty in grasping the intent some of Sydney's posts, when both spelling and grammar can be so willfully opaque (those convoluted Yodastic negatives, in particular; bewildering are they not?)
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George Garnett
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« Reply #200 on: 18:58:10, 21-11-2007 »

Although Member Grew may have been led astray from the topic suggested in the prefatory rubric to this 'thread', we cannot ourselves find it in our heart to submit him to chastisement. Not only was his provision of the electric mimeograph of the Gigue in question greatly appreciated by at least this Member but he has provided us with a mental image that has afforded great if wistful comfort on this cold November evening.   


our vision of those strenuously bouncing Flemings.

                                         
« Last Edit: 19:48:26, 21-11-2007 by George Garnett » Logged
ahinton
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« Reply #201 on: 21:46:20, 21-11-2007 »

Although Member Grew may have been led astray from the topic suggested in the prefatory rubric to this 'thread', we cannot ourselves find it in our heart to submit him to chastisement. Not only was his provision of the electric mimeograph of the Gigue in question greatly appreciated by at least this Member but he has provided us with a mental image that has afforded great if wistful comfort on this cold November evening.
Indeed - and isn't this November evening so cold, damp and thoroughly Englishly miserable otherwise?...

our vision of those strenuously bouncing Flemings.

                                         
Genius, dear sir! That's well and truly warmed the cockles on this aforementioned blah-blah-blah-ish evening, to be sure - although I rather think that the now much-vaunted Ms Fleming herself no more looks quite like that than does (dare I say it?) a certain brilliant Indian viola player as pictured in the CD book accompanying the recording of my string quintet...

Best,

Alistair
« Last Edit: 09:35:06, 22-11-2007 by ahinton » Logged
Baz
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« Reply #202 on: 00:08:36, 22-11-2007 »

In reply to Sydney Grew's post 197, please go to:

http://r3ok.myforum365.com/index.php?topic=2191.0

Baz
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Ron Dough
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« Reply #203 on: 00:16:17, 22-11-2007 »

Thank you, Baz, for creating a new thread for that subject: an eminently sensible idea.

Ron
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Sydney Grew
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« Reply #204 on: 04:30:22, 22-11-2007 »

spelling . . . can be so willfully opaque . . .

Round the peat a paradox! Worth a chuckle north of the Border this time of the year? We have never ventured thither after October, and indeed found the midges bothersome even in July. Nevertheless we once managed to scale Ben Nevis and even motored through to Kirkwall to take the Faroe flight little blossom narrowly avoiding flocks all the way. But we have often wondered why Frenchmen are so attracted to the area - something to do with opposites we suppose and freckles rather than the minus plus minus of the English sandwich does it not have to be.
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trained-pianist
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« Reply #205 on: 21:07:08, 30-11-2007 »

I did not read this discussion. I hope people will not object that I put this site here.
There is experimental music there. Some sounds are unpleasant and I don't think I would listen, but some are better.

There is an interesting section on Avo Part there too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MixrSzIa264&feature=related

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offbeat
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« Reply #206 on: 21:50:34, 30-11-2007 »

hi t/p
utube have many clips on arvo part = hope this link works its first time attempted this.....



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6OwdlKiB_ro

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trained-pianist
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« Reply #207 on: 22:29:17, 30-11-2007 »

Thank you off beat.
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John W
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« Reply #208 on: 21:40:45, 10-12-2007 »

I don't despise 'new' music so I'm not posting on that thread, and this thread might not be appropriate either.

The outpouring of messages since the death of Stockhausen implies that he and his music mean a lot to some members and I've read the threads with interest while being almost totally ignorant of Stockhausen's music, it being normally a cue for me to switch off.

Many have mentioned listening to Stimmung in the last two days, even suggesting a dark room with candles and such.

I got as far as listening to three clips on Amazon Roll Eyes

I will search for something of Stockhausen that I might enjoy hearing.

John W
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richard barrett
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« Reply #209 on: 22:01:02, 10-12-2007 »

Good for you, John. I hope you find something.
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