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Author Topic: R.I.P. English classical music  (Read 2771 times)
Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #180 on: 17:16:07, 30-08-2008 »


Reiner, it seems to me that disbursing grants to venues is a good idea, but perhaps it could be even better to disburse to venues and creators that have decided to collaborate?

That kind of alliance (venue + creator) would be the optimum recipient in my book, TF.   The "one-size-fits-all" program has really had its day IMHO, and programmes or series which are developed in tandem with the audiences (through the venues) are not only desirable in themselves, but stand the best chance of success commercially too.  Better venues and tour-networks already have direct input from audiences (by way of focus groups, feedback surveys etc), and are much more attunded to what audiences really want - which is by no means the "meat & two-veg" diet that might otherwise be force-fed them.
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
-  Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
marbleflugel
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« Reply #181 on: 18:33:10, 30-08-2008 »

On 'Any Questions' today the issue of the 2 Titians lately bought for the nation came up. Unusually the panel achieved some consensus that there should be public subscription towards 'saving' works of art,and ,byimplication,other arts endeavours. Richard's point seems tobe that passive funding via local elections
isnt reliableenough.Ken Livingstone,on the panel incidentally, suggested lottery money should goto building more localarts centres (perhaps also meaning artists in residence?)
I'dsuggest that subscription,asit notionally does with the bbc licence fee, influences content and is a route to apolitical voices getting a seat on the board.
In Switzerland you have all those buglering referenda,including potentially racist agendas such as the recent attempts tocurb islam/ists there, but it seemstoyield a senseof participationwhich we don't have here unlessits labelled 'amateur'.
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Arnold Brown
Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #182 on: 19:45:56, 30-08-2008 »

Ken Livingstone,on the panel incidentally, suggested lottery money should goto building more localarts centres (perhaps also meaning artists in residence?)

I wouldn't believe a word werbled by that hypocritical toad.  Whilst Mayor Of London he actively connived to have funds redirected towards the Olympic Overspend for his personal glory.  He doesn't give a caber's about the Arts - except, of course, as a political football.  His opinion on the topic is worth £0.00 - exactly the amount now allocated as the budget for the "Cultural Olympics" about which our invertebrate-admiring chum yakked so glibly Sad
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
-  Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
marbleflugel
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« Reply #183 on: 19:54:27, 30-08-2008 »

I agree with you on the Olympics,Reiner,although it seems tohave been some contractual obligation for readmission to,er,New LabourMafia. But Boris as the alternative, all the deputies bar Hoey resigned already I believe,etc...

What I thought was interesting was the cross-party consensus on this point and audience approval in radical far-out Maidenhead(location of many a dodgy enterprise in Ealing comedies it has to be said,but the Norden Farm centre ain't bad in my experience)
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'...A  celebrity  is someone  who didn't get the attention they needed as an adult'

Arnold Brown
Ian_Lawson
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« Reply #184 on: 10:36:47, 31-08-2008 »

A problem I can see, Reiner, with your idea is that venues more than the other elements in the "production process" are likely to be most swayed by bums-on-seats proposals and anything less than a fairly sure success isn't going to be considered, don't you think?

A few years ago I attended a seminar organised by and for composers in order to thrash out the business of 'HOW TO GET YOUR MUSIC HEARD'. The day was organised into four sessions: promotion (performance), publishing, broadcasting and recording, these being the distinct areas that composers have to crack in order to get their music ‘heard’. The day was very well organised and there were bods from R3, B&H, NMC, a PR company, the arts council, as well as various and numerous composers.

It quickly became very clear that for most of these composers getting performed, recorded, broadcast or published was a glorious end in itself (particularly getting published). Perhaps you can imagine how unpopular I made myself by suggesting that the organisers had left the days agenda incomplete - that in order to ‘get your music heard’ something additional  has to happen, namely, somebody has to choose to listen.

The reason I recall this is to illustrate to civilians, that, for many composers, a performance is a desirable end in itself. An audience is neither here nor there, it’s still another ‘kill’ for the CV - and a little bit more prestige. However, for the community, jointly paying to maintain a venue, it’s hard to see what the advantage is to programme events that won’t attract an audience over those that might.
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Sydney Grew
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« Reply #185 on: 11:07:54, 31-08-2008 »

A few years ago I attended a seminar organised by and for composers in order to thrash out the business of 'HOW TO GET YOUR MUSIC HEARD'. . . .

An interesting message! But it has to be said that if the music is good enough finding an appreciative audience will not be a problem. Mozart Beethoven Brahms Chaiceffsci Scryabine and Rachmannineff had listeners clamouring for more! Those collections that Bach did publish were enthusiastically received. (Schubert stuffed his Unfinished into a drawer of course.) Of the modernists, people seem to be "going for" Lindberg do not they? If one looks at his web-site one finds him working away at commissions given several years in advance.

The main thing for any composer is: write the best music of which you are capable! The rest will take care of itself.
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richard barrett
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« Reply #186 on: 11:21:23, 31-08-2008 »

these being the distinct areas that composers have to crack in order to get their music ‘heard’.

Seeing it put that way almost makes me incline towards Mr Grew's impossibly naive formulation. And what is this talk about "civilians"? This implies a divide between artists and their audience (and a rather distasteful one, with the former cast as some kind of military) which is part of the problem we're discussing here.
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harmonyharmony
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« Reply #187 on: 11:32:30, 31-08-2008 »

It quickly became very clear that for most of these composers getting performed, recorded, broadcast or published was a glorious end in itself (particularly getting published). Perhaps you can imagine how unpopular I made myself by suggesting that the organisers had left the days agenda incomplete - that in order to ‘get your music heard’ something additional  has to happen, namely, somebody has to choose to listen.

The reason I recall this is to illustrate to civilians, that, for many composers, a performance is a desirable end in itself. An audience is neither here nor there, it’s still another ‘kill’ for the CV - and a little bit more prestige. However, for the community, jointly paying to maintain a venue, it’s hard to see what the advantage is to programme events that won’t attract an audience over those that might.

I'd say that, for a composer, the perfomance is the desirable end simply because that's where they've been heading. They get to hear their music for real in a concert hall. I'm not really bothered about my CV personally. I don't maintain it very well. I love working with musicians, and I love hearing my own music (and hate it at the same time).

One of my favourite interactions with an audience was at Cheltenham, when I had a piano piece played. I'd been asked to have an on-stage interview with Michael Berkeley but he was too busy to come (I think he was having his cello concerto played by Isserlis, so was at the rehearsal for the concert that evening), so I was asked to say a few things about the piece. Completely off the top of my head, I explained what I had been thinking about when I wrote the piece and what I thought that it was all about. Totally informal, and it was clear from their faces that they not only understood what I was talking about but they wanted to understand. And this was 3pm on a weekday at the Cheltenham Festival. These were not hard-core-new-music-audience types. Afterwards they asked me perceptive and musical questions and made perceptive and musical comments. I was really pleased that a few years later the Friends of the Festival chose to commission a new piece from me, based on that performance. And I don't think it had anything to do with the way that I wrote the piece, but rather it had to do with the way that the audience felt invited into the piece. I'm not saying that's something that must happen at every concert (because there are occasions where that would be inappropriate), but that I remember those (for example) Proms where I heard the composer talking beforehand, and felt I'd been granted a 'way in'. Going to concerts with my parents, they have also been helped by pre-concert talks. My mum remembers Gubaidulina and Carter especially.

I suppose what I'm trying to say is that if a work is being commissioned by a community, they probably have a 'right' (whatever that means) to talk to the composer and find out what's going on in the piece. I wouldn't like to see any seminars given that tell composers what to write in order to attract audiences (enough of that happens in some university music departments IMO) because I think that this is beside the point.
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'is this all we can do?'
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Ron Dough
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« Reply #188 on: 11:37:00, 31-08-2008 »

But it has to be said that if the music is good enough finding an appreciative audience will not be a problem. Mozart Beethoven Brahms Chaiceffsci Scryabine and Rachmannineff had listeners clamouring for more!

But then, so did Gershwin, and so do the most successful of Pop, Rock and Jazz composers/performers, creators of music that Mr Grew holds to be of no value whatsover. Am I alone in finding that deliciously paradoxical?
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richard barrett
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« Reply #189 on: 12:09:08, 31-08-2008 »

when I had a piano piece played

This is maybe a bit offtopic, but I've always had a big problem with that formulation ("having a piece played") and I never use it. To me it implies that the fact of the piece of music being played makes the composer rather than the music central. (Not to mention the associations with phrases like "I'm having my car serviced", in other words where one has "commanded" that event to take place.) For the same reason you'll never find me referring to "my music", that might just be an eccentricity of mine but to me that implies a proprietorial relationship to the music I've written and/or performed which I don't feel. Does this make any sense? It's not that I'm trying to create a "distance" between me and what I do, since, as my earlier post made clear, that isn't really the case, it's that I think it's important that it doesn't "belong" to me any more than it does to anyone else, and the fact of my involvement with it is principally of relevance to myself rather than having to be a defining feature of it for others.
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Ian_Lawson
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« Reply #190 on: 12:22:54, 31-08-2008 »

(and a rather distasteful one, with the former cast as some kind of military).

I Fear you may well be correct. I’ve always thought there was something a bit creepy about those Salvation Army types trying to save the rest of us from ourselves.
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richard barrett
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« Reply #191 on: 12:27:45, 31-08-2008 »

(and a rather distasteful one, with the former cast as some kind of military).

I Fear you may well be correct. I’ve always thought there was something a bit creepy about those Salvation Army types trying to save the rest of us from ourselves.

So why do you use the term?
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Ian_Lawson
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« Reply #192 on: 15:09:06, 31-08-2008 »

So why do you use the term?

I fear it is a combination of  National Service not quite making  a man of me, and a cheery, playful disposition that finds it really hard to be appropriately po-faced in the presence of superior officers.


I suppose what I'm trying to say is that if a work is being commissioned by a community, they probably have a 'right' (whatever that means) to talk to the composer and find out what's going on in the piece. I wouldn't like to see any seminars given that tell composers what to write in order to attract audiences (enough of that happens in some university music departments IMO) because I think that this is beside the point.

How things must have changed, Harmony x2. In my day things were considerably tougher.

I still have a despatch from the SPNM front line ordering me to ‘think carefully’ about the sort of  music I need to write if I wanted to be considered for promotion. How I remember a Sergeant Major from the BBC advising me that I would never be considered for the crack R3 squad unless I changed my attitude to authority and give up the tunes. Back at  barracks, although my immediate superior managed to slip the offending tonalities past the nose of the man from the ministry, he was later court- martialed for treachery and left to suffer the indignities of civvy street (or the market-place as it is sometimes known)

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richard barrett
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« Reply #193 on: 15:17:45, 31-08-2008 »

I see. Very amusing. But if I may draw your attention back to exactly what you wanted to tell the "civilians":

for many composers, a performance is a desirable end in itself. An audience is neither here nor there

... perhaps you could also inform them as to which facts and indeed which composers you are basing this assertion upon, if any, since those "civilians" may be under the impression that you are speaking from a position of having researched the subject rather than merely giving vent to unfounded supposition.
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Ian_Lawson
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« Reply #194 on: 17:34:39, 31-08-2008 »


... perhaps you could also inform them as to which facts and indeed which composers you are basing this assertion upon, if any, since those "civilians" may be under the impression that you are speaking from a position of having researched the subject rather than merely giving vent to unfounded supposition.

Why? Would you claim that performance is an undesirable end in itself and that audience presence/satisfaction is paramount?
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