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Author Topic: R.I.P. English classical music  (Read 2771 times)
richard barrett
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« Reply #150 on: 17:59:42, 29-08-2008 »

Richard, that's nice, really it is, and I'm completely with you on that level. Passionate involvement is and should be what keeps us going as musicians.

Unfortunately, it doesn't get us any further when arguing about public subsidy.

No it doesn't, and it wasn't intended to, I just felt it necessary to put that perspective into the discussion.

You're the one who began imputing bureaucratic methods for determining levels of criticality.

No, I'm the one who cited such methods to show how absurd I thought the whole idea of using how "critical" music is as a funding criterion. Not that I don't think that criticality has any relevance. It certainly has a great deal to me as a musician. But I think there's a great deal of valuable music which couldn't be described as "critical" either in intent or in the perception of most people who hear it.

Since we're told that there isn't enough money for everything, decisions are going to be made which filter out one or other constituency from consideration. Basing those decisions on some pseudo-objective criterion like criticality, or for that matter on "people personally known to the panel members", which I've seen going on with my own eyes, is a kind of censorship. I would prefer to see a way of doing things (given that one accepts the legitimacy of the entire system, which I don't) which stays as far as possible from censorship.
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #151 on: 18:11:49, 29-08-2008 »

For what it's worth, I do think that a piece or performance of music that seems deeply intimate, heartfelt, written or performed as a product of inner needs or necessity rather than trying to induce certain reactions in audiences 'from above', playing to the gallery or whatever, is in itself 'critical' when it exists in an aesthetic and social culture that devalues such things and insists that artistic subjectivity play a purely functional role. There's a lot more to 'critical' music than, say, the viola solo from Lachenmann's Gran Torso (there's also a lot more to Lachenmann than that, of course).

As far as 'censorship'  is concerned, by the terms it is described above, one might as well say that any system by which some music receives money and other music doesn't (i.e. any funding system at all, including a market-based one or one based on low-level decisions as in the improv world - someone has to decide who gets to play at the Vortex and who doesn't, at least on the better dates) constitutes censorship. What is the alternative?
« Last Edit: 18:15:09, 29-08-2008 by Ian Pace » Logged

'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
Ian Pace
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« Reply #152 on: 18:33:07, 29-08-2008 »

Another thought - I think it was Victor Shlovsky or one of the other Russian Formalist critics who tried to define literature, as opposed to other uses of language, in terms of exhibiting the quality of ostranei or 'defamiliarisation' (will  one of the Russian speakers here correct me if I've spelt the term wrongly). Literature was that which, in various ways, moves beyond the familiar and already-known. That's not a dissimilar concept to what I think of as the 'critical', and it's still got a lot going for it.
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
Ian_Lawson
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« Reply #153 on: 20:36:40, 29-08-2008 »

But bands that play in pubs etc. don’t do so because passing a hat round allows them to keep going. They keep going because they enjoy doing it - money or not. This doesn’t seem so true of ‘contemporary’ music groups.

I don't know about that. Playing contemporary compositions isn't a passport to riches either. What do you think is the reason that a considerable number of these groups still exist, against the financial odds (I'm not talking about the London Sinfonietta or Arditti String Quartet but less "mainstream" operations like Plus Minus, which as far as I know doesn't receive a regular subsidy)? Could it possibly be because they find the music they play has something to contribute to the world and they derive musical fulfilment from it, or aren't you prepared to accept that such is possible?

As someone who is involved with an organisation that promotes concerts of contemporary music I personally know people who will play such music for no money. Therefore not only do I accept that such is possible I know it actually happens. However, this is not the norm, whereas it is with bands playing in pubs. That's why I only put it as strongly as 'doesn't seem so true'

Don't worry about the loving it bit. It's quite normal - nothing to write home about.
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richard barrett
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« Reply #154 on: 20:39:13, 29-08-2008 »

Don't worry about the loving it bit. It's quite normal - nothing to write home about.

Any other useful tips while you're about it? Who's your hairdresser?
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Turfan Fragment
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Formerly known as Chafing Dish


« Reply #155 on: 21:00:54, 29-08-2008 »

(2)  In my town (population 25,000) there are ten coffee shops not including pubs etc. One of them is a Starbucks. None have closed down since Starbucks opened two years ago, indeed two more have opened since. Starbucks only seems noticeably busy in the hour or so after school.
I heard a radio program about a cafe owner who observed that his business flourished as a direct result of being next to Starbucks. Or so he claimed. The rationale is that (1) people are attracted to the area b/c of the Starbucks, but what they really wanted was coffee, and hey, the line over here is shorter, and oo look at the nice non-ugly decor! Oo and the coffee is better too!

Unfortunately that doesn't help us much either, but it's a nice side topic. I love coffee.

On topic again: I notice that in the visual arts there is a very strong and vibrant critical tradition, that almost every well-known artist working today is aware of the issues of art in society, and sometimes they are even their own theorists and eloquent social critics (I'm thinking in particular of Jeff Wall, but he's just one of many examples)

How does this compare to the music world? I think, not well at all. Any ideas why not?

It's not enough to claim that art is a commodity while music is a service, that's true but not the whole story.
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richard barrett
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« Reply #156 on: 21:11:35, 29-08-2008 »

I notice that in the visual arts there is a very strong and vibrant critical tradition, that almost every well-known artist working today is aware of the issues of art in society ... How does this compare to the music world? I think, not well at all. Any ideas why not?

I'm not sure that's right. Almost every well-known artist?

It is true that if we're talking about notated composition, the writing of scores and their interpretation by performers depend on a kind of education and a kind of tradition which isn't so often met with in the visual arts in recent decades. This may create a conservative kind of norm among people who are involved in this kind of music, hence the whole idea (Lachenmann et al.) of creating music which tries explicitly to question this norm.

However, as I seem to have to keep saying, contemporary music doesn't just consist of contemporary "classical" music. I don't know of a single improving musician who I know to embrace (or who I would expect to embrace) a conservative view of society - as I implied before, this musical practice has in itself a tendency to repel that way of looking at things. From this standpoint one might look at the music of someone like Lachenmann and say well, it sounds attractive but as for all that other paraphernalia we went through it decades ago and came out the other side.
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Turfan Fragment
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Formerly known as Chafing Dish


« Reply #157 on: 21:26:15, 29-08-2008 »

I notice that in the visual arts there is a very strong and vibrant critical tradition, that almost every well-known artist working today is aware of the issues of art in society ... How does this compare to the music world? I think, not well at all. Any ideas why not?

I'm not sure that's right. Almost every well-known artist?

No. It was hyperbole. But artists get more respect for being iconoclasts than musicians do. Or not. I may be completely off base.
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Ian_Lawson
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« Reply #158 on: 21:29:28, 29-08-2008 »

Any other useful tips while you're about it? Who's your hairdresser?

That depends on whether I want a critical haircut or a mere entertaining tidy-up.

I’ve had good results with Vidal Sassoon  But unfortunately they are not subsidised so I can only go when privately sponsored. 
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richard barrett
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« Reply #159 on: 21:32:33, 29-08-2008 »

artists get more respect for being iconoclasts than musicians do. Or not. I may be completely off base.

From whom does this respect come though?
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #160 on: 21:57:09, 29-08-2008 »

It's not enough to claim that art is a commodity while music is a service, that's true but not the whole story.
The fact that art is on the whole much less expensive to produce (as is true of most art forms not involving performers or other division of labour (as with architecture, say)) may be a bigger factor?
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
Ian Pace
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« Reply #161 on: 22:06:01, 29-08-2008 »

No. It was hyperbole. But artists get more respect for being iconoclasts than musicians do. Or not. I may be completely off base.
In a certain sense they do, but I feel it's rather superficial. There's a place for the artist who is mildly 'shocking' on the surface, but what many of them do to me seems very tame compared with, say, the Vienna artists of the 1960s. Bourgeois society has a place for its token eccentrics, almost as a way of reaffirming its own 'normality' in contrast to them.

Lachenmann - yes, some of his musical developments are no longer as new or radical as they once were, and have had countless imitators and been absorbed into the festival circuit musical vernacular, but all the unusual sounds and playing techniques were often means towards ends rather than ends in themselves. His type of structural and discursive radicalism is what I find to be more lastingly meaningful. And in terms of 'we went through it decades ago and came out the other side' I think that can be said of quite a bit of free improv as well.
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
matticus
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Every work of art is an uncommitted crime.


« Reply #162 on: 23:40:01, 29-08-2008 »

There's usually an assumption that 'popular' culture (like other 'successful' enterprise) is somehow free of subsidy, but it really isn't, even if the subsidy is just in the form of tax breaks. Most obviously here in the UK, the film industry hoovers up millions to make dreadful films in the hope that the investment will be recouped in the tourist industry. In any case, subsidy is commonly used in our society to keep alive industries that could much more profitably be exported (eg farming), mainly just to keep people in jobs. The main mechanism for allocating this is thru connections (as suggested earlier by Ian) - the powerful farming lobby gets it, the weaker mining lobby doesn't.

I suppose what I'm trying to say is that our society doesn't have a problem with subsidy, nor really do the people in it, and so despite the fact that debates like this throw up all kinds of interesting issues, maybe it would be better to point out the wider flaws and corruption in the way resources are allocated. Trying to argue one's case in this way just confirms/validates the wider system.
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richard barrett
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« Reply #163 on: 23:42:48, 29-08-2008 »

I suppose what I'm trying to say is that our society doesn't have a problem with subsidy, nor really do the people in it, and so despite the fact that debates like this throw up all kinds of interesting issues, maybe it would be better to point out the wider flaws and corruption in the way resources are allocated. Trying to argue one's case in this way just confirms/validates the wider system.

Yes indeed, thanks for putting that so succinctly as usual.
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #164 on: 00:00:00, 30-08-2008 »

I take your point, matticus, though I do believe subsidy may be more precarious than we realise. And on the other hand, I do believe we should have subsidy on European levels (whilst that itself is coming under attack, even with cuts it would be likely to be better than that which exists in the UK) - the fact that a major increase in this respect seems inconceivable in Britain at present seems to me a reason why the case for subsidy should be made all the more strongly. And a shift in subsidising priorities in favour primarily of the 'moderately commercial' almost seems to negate the whole purpose of subsidy in the first place.
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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