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Author Topic: R.I.P. English classical music  (Read 2771 times)
Ian Pace
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« Reply #30 on: 23:59:48, 26-08-2008 »

I agree, but the point here is that Pollard is behaving in a Commissar fashion by failing to support what he writes with any sort of evidence - it's just a succession of assertions being presented as indisputable fact.  Insider or not, Pollard simply fails to justify what he writes.
Fair enough, but do you think Service's response is any better in that respect?
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
richard barrett
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« Reply #31 on: 00:01:33, 27-08-2008 »

These figures may be relevant to the discussion of subsidies:

Government subsidy to Arts Council England for 2007/08: £412 million
Government defence budget for 2007/08: £38.5 billion
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Bryn
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« Reply #32 on: 00:05:12, 27-08-2008 »

You won't find me carrying any card for any ideology named after an individual, ...

Something else we can agree on, then, and we are in good company, for Marx was famously no Marxist, either. It bears thinking about, though, what you (or I) would have done as a rebellious school-teacher in China in the period immediately after WW1, or even, for that matter, a rebellious Georgian seminarian in the first decade of the last Century, in subservient region within the Russian empire.

Now here's a strange piece of work I chanced upon:

http://www.useless-knowledge.com/1234/apr/article095.html
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #33 on: 00:11:05, 27-08-2008 »

The desirable alternative is not that comment should be left exclusively to those with vested interests, but that someone like Stephen Pollard should have been able to write that article without making patently untrue statements and glaring omissions (such as the failure even to mention Tippett or Walton or indeed, as IRF says, Malcolm Arnold).
Arnold perhaps, but do you think Walton or (especially) Tippett had the type of following as did RVW or Britten?

In terms of the other claims:

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Yet I doubt if anyone but a few people have listened to their [Birtwistle's and Maxwell Davies'] works.
Almost certainly true in terms of the population as a whole (I can't prove that, but I'd be happy to bet money on it).

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In Vaughan Williams's day, the premiere of a new work of music was a significant event. No one would be considered culturally aware unless they were au fait with the new Vaughan Williams symphony.
Interesting - I'd like to know more about this if it is true. I suspect this was likely only to be true for a relatively small clique as well. I bet more people were up with what was being played at the Hammersmith Palais, or the equivalent in other locations.

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The cultural commissars were obsessed with theories of music that held that melody was no longer a legitimate tool and only atonal music was appropriate to the age.
Depends which ones - certainly there were some, but by no means all or even most, certainly in Britain.

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Their dominance of the subsidy racket meant that not only were composers freed from any obligation to secure an audience for their music, but they were pilloried and starved of funds also if they did attempt to do that.
That bit is certainly nonsense both then and now - plenty of tonal composers were commissioned and performed. Truly atonal music has never truly held the reins in Britain.

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Vaughan Williams was the last composer to speak directly to a wide audience, with music that could be appreciated by listeners who did not have degrees in musical theory.
I'd say that's equally true of Stockhausen or Xenakis or countless others, though a lot of the ways it is taught and promulgated and written about would give a different impression.

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And his lover and musical partner, the tenor Peter Pears, sounded as English as the Queen.
That's a bit unfair on the Queen.

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As the older generation lost its grip on the purse strings, so younger composers have started to write music that wider audiences can enjoy. James MacMillan, a Scottish composer, is as intellectually rigorous as any of his predecessors but has the priceless gift of connecting with audiences.
That bit makes me want to throw up, but that is a subjective view.

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Adès may be English but, unlike Vaughan Williams, there is almost nothing in his music to show that.
There I couldn't disagree more.
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
time_is_now
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« Reply #34 on: 00:21:59, 27-08-2008 »

The desirable alternative is not that comment should be left exclusively to those with vested interests, but that someone like Stephen Pollard should have been able to write that article without making patently untrue statements and glaring omissions (such as the failure even to mention Tippett or Walton or indeed, as IRF says, Malcolm Arnold).
Arnold perhaps, but do you think Walton or (especially) Tippett had the type of following as did RVW or Britten?
No, that's not what I meant: but Pollard claims that Britten didn't have the same following as Vaughan Williams, and seems to be mentioning him mainly as another 'recognisably English composer' with some sort of potential to appeal to non-specialist audiences. I would have thought this was equally true of Walton and Tippett, in their different ways. Indeed, Britten's appeal is arguably more specialised in certain respects, since despite the strong pragmatic 'writing for amateurs' strain to his work there's also a reliance on 'traditional values' to do with singing and voice production in particular - both solo vocal and choral - that doesn't really arise to the same extent with the other two composers.

I'm glad I wasn't the only person who wondered about that "No one would be considered culturally aware unless they were au fait with the new Vaughan Williams symphony". But again, I'm not sure this is untrue ... It would just be nice to think Pollard had made this claim because he had some reason to believe it other than simply that it suited his argument.
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #35 on: 00:25:31, 27-08-2008 »

You won't find me carrying any card for any ideology named after an individual, ...

Something else we can agree on, then, and we are in good company, for Marx was famously no Marxist, either.
Absolutely. The need to turn Marxism into some type of theology seems highly counter-productive, not least because Marx's writings are not necessarily consistent through his life. A big tangent (which maybe should have another thread?), but I've recently been reading some fascinating stuff in David Cannadine's extremely good book Class in Britain, concerning how Marx, upon first arriving in London in 1850, believed that in the industrially advanced country of Britain, the bourgeoisie had practically vanquished the aristocracy, but not that long afterwards both he and Engels were coming round to a different view of how the British bourgeoisie served to effect a continuation of feudal values. That sort of contradiction in British society, whereby industrialisation had progressed as much as in any country, yet without any revolutionary overthrow of feudalism (unless you count 1688 - there is an argument that maintains that the aristocracy never had true power either from this point or from quite early in the 18th century, certainly compared to in various other European countries, and that's not an argument I would wholly dismiss), is something I'm not sure if Marx and Engels ever managed to thoroughly account for (England, as the 'rock against which every revolutionary wave breaks', seems to have been a continuous sticking-point for Marx).

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It bears thinking about, though, what you (or I) would have done as a rebellious school-teacher in China in the period immediately after WW1, or even, for that matter, a rebellious Georgian seminarian in the first decade of the last Century, in subservient region within the Russian empire.
Perhaps we would have been dead?
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
Ian Pace
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« Reply #36 on: 00:32:12, 27-08-2008 »

No, that's not what I meant: but Pollard claims that Britten didn't have the same following as Vaughan Williams, and seems to be mentioning him mainly as another 'recognisably English composer' with some sort of potential to appeal to non-specialist audiences.
Well, he said:

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The only contemporary composer who had anything close to Vaughan Williams's recognition was Benjamin Britten. Despite his avowed attempt to excise from his work what he regarded as the stultifying parochialism of the English musical scene, he too was a recognisably English composer. His breakthrough came with Peter Grimes, an opera set in a village that could easily have been his home town, Aldeburgh. And his lover and musical partner, the tenor Peter Pears, sounded as English as the Queen.
which is hardly emphasising the negative (in the sense of not being like RVW).

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I would have thought this was equally true of Walton and Tippett, in their different ways. Indeed, Britten's appeal is arguably more specialised in certain respects, since despite the strong pragmatic 'writing for amateurs' strain to his work there's also a reliance on 'traditional values' to do with singing and voice production in particular - both solo vocal and choral - that doesn't really arise to the same extent with the other two composers.
Well, I would have thought Peter Grimes and the War Requiem are more widely known and performed than anything of Tippett (especially in an international sense; from what I can tell, Tippett's reputation at least in various European countries isn't that different from, say, that of Blacher or Sauget here); Walton's Belshazzar's Feast may come close, though.

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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
Ian Pace
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« Reply #37 on: 00:33:33, 27-08-2008 »

These figures may be relevant to the discussion of subsidies:

Government subsidy to Arts Council England for 2007/08: £412 million
Government defence budget for 2007/08: £38.5 billion
Something I'm always looking out for is a comprehensive comparative study of musical subsidy in different Western countries - especially one that examines this over a reasonably wide historical period - anyone know of such a thing, with figures?

I would like to think that the public as a whole would have equal problems with defence spending, but remembering the ways in which defence was used as a vote-winner for the Tories (and to discredit Old Labour) in various past elections, I'm doubtful.
« Last Edit: 00:37:05, 27-08-2008 by Ian Pace » Logged

'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
time_is_now
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« Reply #38 on: 00:43:01, 27-08-2008 »

which is hardly emphasising the negative (in the sense of not being like RVW).
The whole article is emphasising that negative, though: there's not been a composer like RVW since he died, not even Britten, is the thrust of the argument.
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Ron Dough
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« Reply #39 on: 00:47:15, 27-08-2008 »

TIn Vaughan Williams's day, the premiere of a new work of music was a significant event. No one would be considered culturally aware unless they were au fait with the new Vaughan Williams symphony.
Interesting - I'd like to know more about this if it is true. I suspect this was likely only to be true for a relatively small clique as well. I bet more people were up with what was being played at the Hammersmith Palais, or the equivalent in other locations.

It's likely to be at least half-true. The Greensleeves Fantasia was still a regular fixture on Childrens' Favourites in the fifties: it was played every other week, just about. Even in the early sixties, papers such as the Express and Mail were still carrying reviews of major classical concerts, though possibly the Sketch didn't. The War Requiem's première (1962) was covered pretty extensively almost everywhere, perhaps the last time a classical work would be so treated in the British press: I still have a sheaf of cuttings, somewhere. In the thirties and forties, when there was no television and rather more limited radio (regional variants rather than many stations) classical music was much more to the fore, and certainly more newsworthy. Music was far more part of education too: doubtless some would have come to know the RVW's name through learning his songs at school, possibly his hymns from the English Hymnal at assembly, as we did at Grammar School in the sixties. His was a name also well-known to those who frequented the cinema: not only he but Walton, Bax and Bliss wrote scores for major commercial films.

In one sense, Pollard does have it right: whether or not it's actually connected with RVW's death (and I don't believe for one moment it is), a seismic shift occurred in the standing of classical music around the late fifties and early sixties, and the period during which contemporary music had been able to speak to a sizeable portion of the population came to an end.  
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richard barrett
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« Reply #40 on: 00:55:41, 27-08-2008 »

That's one way of looking at it. Another is that RVW was something of a living fossil at the time of his death (after 4'33", Metastaseis, Le marteau sans maître and Gruppen had all come into the world), by which time things had already moved on!
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #41 on: 01:03:17, 27-08-2008 »

That's one way of looking at it. Another is that RVW was something of a living fossil at the time of his death (after 4'33", Metastaseis, Le marteau sans maître and Gruppen had all come into the world), by which time things had already moved on!
Outside of the UK they had; in the UK, Birtwistle had written Refrains and Choruses one year previously, Maxwell Davies the Trumpet Sonata three years before, and Cardew his three piano sonatas and the Two Books of Study for Pianists (not to mention various earlier works of Lutyens); for all the undoubted merits of these works, I find it hard to see that some sort of meaningful musical modernism had yet really made its mark in Britain by 1958.
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
Ron Dough
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« Reply #42 on: 01:27:36, 27-08-2008 »

Not so much a fossil as an old oak in the contemporary landscape, r. Modernism at the start of the fifties in the UK was likely to be serially-inspired: the Schoenberg disciple Gerhard and Webern pupil Searle both wrote their first symphonies in 1952-3: both were respected, though hardly centre-stage. Tippett's second symphony appeared in the year of RVW's death: four years later, as part of the same Coventry celebration that saw the first performance of the War Requiem, King Priam was premièred: the tectonic plates in his musical language had shifted completely, although that period almost certainly represents him at his most extreme.

By the end of the sixties the landscape had altered considerably: it could be argued that by the time of Britten's early death in 1976, he was far more removed from the centre of the British musical scene than was Vaughan Williams, some twenty-five years older at the time of his demise, only eighteen years previously.
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richard barrett
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« Reply #43 on: 01:40:24, 27-08-2008 »

it could be argued that by the time of Britten's early death in 1976, he was far more removed from the centre of the British musical scene than was Vaughan Williams, some twenty-five years older at the time of his demise, only eighteen years previously.

You think so? I really couldn't say for sure but I would have said the opposite was true (especially given that RVW's musical style had been formed more like fifty years before Britten's).
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #44 on: 01:42:11, 27-08-2008 »

Very true, Ron- and if Vaughan Williams did not really keep up with radical developments in the last decade or so of his life, the same could be said of Hindemith or Hartmann or Poulenc (all younger than Vaughan Williams) in terms of what they were writing in the same period.

What maybe was most different about the UK was the lack of institutions prepared to support the more radical tendencies on a sustained basis, until Glock took over at the BBC. Certainly this was very different to the situation in West Germany, where there were countless new music festivals all over the country set up from around 1951 onwards. These were actually very pluralistic (and very international) - there was a world of difference between Musik der Zeit in Cologne, Musica Viva in Munich or the Woche für Neue Musik in Frankfurt - and the festivals in Darmstadt and Donaueschingen were never as monolithic as they are sometimes portrayed. Most festivals were prepared to give some space for the avant-garde, even if not always the most prominent slots. Though from what I can tell so far (I'm trying to collect the programmes for all of them, but I'm still assembling data), Hindemith seems to have been the most frequently performed composer at least in the 1950s.
« Last Edit: 01:44:48, 27-08-2008 by Ian Pace » Logged

'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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