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Author Topic: R.I.P. English classical music  (Read 2771 times)
Turfan Fragment
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« Reply #45 on: 01:55:53, 27-08-2008 »

most frequently performed living composer, or overall most frequently performed on those particular festivals?
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #46 on: 01:57:28, 27-08-2008 »

most frequently performed living composer, or overall most frequently performed on those particular festivals?
Most frequently performed in those and lots of other festivals - but I reckon there's a fair chance he may have been the most frequently performed living German composer overall in that country as well (Orff would probably have been his closest rival for that). The latter is hard to ascertain without a huge amount of data, though a statistical sample may give a rough idea.
« Last Edit: 02:00:02, 27-08-2008 by Ian Pace » Logged

'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
Robert Dahm
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« Reply #47 on: 02:15:40, 27-08-2008 »

I have a friend who is about to commence doctoral study on the development of the avant-garde on the Continent in the 50's and 60's as a reaction/response to political/politicised stimuli surrounding fascism and Nazism in the second world war (or something like that - I don't explain it so well as he does, 'cos I'm a dumbass). The near-compulsive forward-lookingness presumably engendered a culture where things like contemporary music festivals were able to thrive, the presentation of so much new music in such close proximity meaning that the frame of reference for musical discourse shifted at an unprecedented rate.

Assuming he's on something resembling the right track, I wonder if the comparative absence of political upheaval (I mean on the order of régime shift) in Britain at this time contributed to the relatively delayed development of an avant-garde?

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Ian Pace
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« Reply #48 on: 02:32:21, 27-08-2008 »

I have a friend who is about to commence doctoral study on the development of the avant-garde on the Continent in the 50's and 60's as a reaction/response to political/politicised stimuli surrounding fascism and Nazism in the second world war (or something like that - I don't explain it so well as he does, 'cos I'm a dumbass). The near-compulsive forward-lookingness presumably engendered a culture where things like contemporary music festivals were able to thrive, the presentation of so much new music in such close proximity meaning that the frame of reference for musical discourse shifted at an unprecedented rate.
This is a subject about which a number of people (including myself, in the context of West Germany) are currently engaged in research. There have been various rather simplistic theories touted around in the past - the 'Stunde Null' of music, music as anti-fascism, music as anti-communism, music as anti-capitalism, all of which in my view have some truth in them but none of which really provide a remotely comprehensive explanation of the history. On the other hand, as ideologies that at various points could be propagated in support of certain aesthetic tendencies, they are very important. I'm gradually starting to think that political 'image' was more important at this time (at least in Germany, though also to some extent elsewhere) than political 'effect'. Even supposedly politically neutral discourses, such as those of positivist science as found in the Cologne electronic composers including Stockhausen, themselves had a ideological dimension, not least in terms of attitudes towards history, ideals of progress, and the like.

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Assuming he's on something resembling the right track, I wonder if the comparative absence of political upheaval (I mean on the order of régime shift) in Britain at this time contributed to the relatively delayed development of an avant-garde?
I believe so, and not just in the post-war era; the lack of a proper bourgeois revolution may be connected with the lack of serious engagement (to this day) with a Beethovenian model of bourgeois subjectivity - though that type of argument could be put very differently, in terms of the relationship of the development of artistic subjectivity to the division of labour in the UK from the beginning of the Industrial Revolution. Ultimately this type of hermeneutical approach tends to rely upon a degree of conjecture that cannot easily be proved or disproved; I tend to look at things more in terms of institutions, economics, critical reception and the like instead at the moment. But for all that Britain was behind in developing an avant-garde, the same could be said, after 1945, of Spain, Portugal, most of the Scandinavian countries, East Germany, and various other places. And in Western countries not formerly belonging to the Axis, it was more an issue of restoration rather than major régime shift, though of course the experience of occupation surely had a major effect upon consciousness.


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« Last Edit: 02:37:36, 27-08-2008 by Ian Pace » Logged

'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
Sydney Grew
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« Reply #49 on: 02:40:37, 27-08-2008 »

Indeed so, Ron.  It's sad that newspapers commission people with little or no knowledge of music - and on the basis of this piece Pollard clearly falls into that category - to write this sort of polemic.  Would it happen with football?
Well, when 'people with little or no knowledge of music' are still expected to subsidise it through their taxes, aren't they allowed to have their say as well?

Ah, you mean in the same way as those with no interest in sport or foreign wars (to take two examples at random) are expected to subsidise them through taxes? I can't see any that they have any more opportunity to have their say on those scores.

What a profound truth Mr. Dough writes here! It is beginning to be realized that mass government has failed! We have lived through an interesting experiment that is all. As time goes on in the decades to come it will become crystal-clear. But where does that leave us? Should we prodigals not as we eventually do in every other matter return to humanity's native soil - the wisdom of Plato?
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #50 on: 02:42:31, 27-08-2008 »

Should we prodigals not as we eventually do in every other matter return to humanity's native soil - the wisdom of Plato?
Including his proscriptions for music?
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
Robert Dahm
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« Reply #51 on: 02:51:52, 27-08-2008 »

Should we prodigals not as we eventually do in every other matter return to humanity's native soil - the wisdom of Plato?
Including his proscriptions for music?

Indeed. I'm almost certain that there must be certain musics reflective of, say, the Phrygian mode that are found pleasurable even by the eminent Mssrs Grew. But revolution based on ideology is never without its consequences or its casualties.
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #52 on: 08:30:55, 27-08-2008 »

This is a subject about which a number of people (including myself, in the context of West Germany) are currently engaged in research. There have been various rather simplistic theories touted around in the past - the 'Stunde Null' of music, music as anti-fascism, music as anti-communism, music as anti-capitalism, all of which in my view have some truth in them but none of which really provide a remotely comprehensive explanation of the history.
Or as Stockhausen famously put it in 1953:

Vergesse man aber nicht, dass selten eine Komponistengeneration so viele Chancen hatte und zu solch glücklichem Augenblick geboren wurde, wie die jetzige: Die Städte sind radiert – und man kann von Grund auf neu anfangen, ohne Rücksicht auf Ruinen und geschmacklose Überreste.

Let no one forget that seldom has a generation of composers had so many chances and been born at such a fortunate moment as this one: the cities have been erased - and one can build again from the ground up, without consideration of ruins and tasteless relics.

(Since the Nazis and the war had killed both his parents you would certainly have to say he was accentuating the positive.)

for all that Britain was behind in developing an avant-garde, the same could be said, after 1945, of Spain, Portugal, most of the Scandinavian countries, East Germany, and various other places. And in Western countries not formerly belonging to the Axis, it was more an issue of restoration rather than major régime shift, though of course the experience of occupation surely had a major effect upon consciousness.
What could certainly be said is that the countries which did 'develop an avant-garde' in that sense are in such a minority (Germany, France and to a lesser extent Italy, no?) that the question might be not so much why other places didn't as why they did.
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richard barrett
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« Reply #53 on: 11:23:40, 27-08-2008 »

What could certainly be said is that the countries which did 'develop an avant-garde' in that sense are in such a minority (Germany, France and to a lesser extent Italy, no?) that the question might be not so much why other places didn't as why they did.

Much of the activity, though, was centred around contemporary music festivals, radio stations and the Darmstadt summer courses, all of which were in Germany and all of which were receiving massive shots in the arm from the Allies as part of an effort to promulgate the values of the "free world" in the newly-liberated country. The same kind of support of course lay behind the way that Abstract Expressionist art came to the fore in New York at round about the same time.

So for Cold-War-related ideological reasons, the sense of total artistic freedom implied by Stockhausen in your quote came (somewhat paradoxically) into being. In the wider scheme of things, this is (or was) just another kind of patronage influencing the art produced under it, in the same sort of way that the patronage of the Lutheran church influenced JS Bach's music. What is different about the "postwar avant garde" is that the patronage came in the guise of (more or less) a carte blanche, at least for a couple of decades, without the "discipline" of the market or a religious organisation or the whims of a prince to satisfy. I tend to see this as a "civilising" phenomenon - "der Zeit ihre Kunst, der Kunst ihre Freiheit" as the façade of the Sezession building in Vienna has it. Now that this sense of music as exploration has been let out of the box it can't be put back, even if it becomes increasingly difficult to pursue. Some might wish to tar the avant-gardists with the same brush as the cold warriors, but actually the latter have in my opinion done something unintentionally beautiful by engendering this phenomenon.
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #54 on: 11:56:02, 27-08-2008 »

Much of the activity, though, was centred around contemporary music festivals, radio stations and the Darmstadt summer courses, all of which were in Germany and all of which were receiving massive shots in the arm from the Allies as part of an effort to promulgate the values of the "free world" in the newly-liberated country.
That's a claim that many have made, but none have been able to truly substantiate, certainly not in the case of Darmstadt. Toby Thacker (Music after Hitler and various other essays), David Monod (Settling Scores), Amy Beal (New Music, New Allies) and Ian Wellens (Music on the Frontline) have all written detailed critiques of these unfounded claims. On which basis do you make this claim?

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The same kind of support of course lay behind the way that Abstract Expressionist art came to the fore in New York at round about the same time.
The situations were very different for art and music. There is clear evidence of the CIA-backed Congress for Cultural Freedom backing Abstract Expressionist art; also, under the patronage of Nicolas Nabokov, of it supporting some musical activity, though the directions in which Nabokov pushed CCF money were certainly not those of the avant-garde. The only possible link that anyone has found in this respect is through H.H. Stuckenschmidt, who was a CCF member in the 1950s, though the person who's looked most deeply into this, Thacker, is insistent that Stuckenschmidt was, through his various activities in writing about composers and recommending to various festival directors, acting off his own back.

Quote
So for Cold-War-related ideological reasons, the sense of total artistic freedom implied by Stockhausen in your quote came (somewhat paradoxically) into being.
This has become a cliché that was offered originally as conjecture, and through repetition has entered the level of ideology.

Quote
What is different about the "postwar avant garde" is that the patronage came in the guise of (more or less) a carte blanche, at least for a couple of decades, without the "discipline" of the market or a religious organisation or the whims of a prince to satisfy.
Other whims to satisfy, and lots of individuals in charge of things who had by necessity their own ideological agendas to satisfy - not least because of their own records during the Third Reich, necessitating some sort of association with that which could be promoted as somehow anti-fascist.

Quote
I tend to see this as a "civilising" phenomenon - "der Zeit ihre Kunst, der Kunst ihre Freiheit" as the façade of the Sezession building in Vienna has it. Now that this sense of music as exploration has been let out of the box it can't be put back, even if it becomes increasingly difficult to pursue. Some might wish to tar the avant-gardists with the same brush as the cold warriors, but actually the latter have in my opinion done something unintentionally beautiful by engendering this phenomenon.
All of this post derives from insubstantiated hearsay and ideology.
« Last Edit: 12:08:49, 27-08-2008 by Ian Pace » Logged

'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
Ian Pace
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« Reply #55 on: 12:06:53, 27-08-2008 »

Or as Stockhausen famously put it in 1953:

Vergesse man aber nicht, dass selten eine Komponistengeneration so viele Chancen hatte und zu solch glücklichem Augenblick geboren wurde, wie die jetzige: Die Städte sind radiert – und man kann von Grund auf neu anfangen, ohne Rücksicht auf Ruinen und geschmacklose Überreste.

Let no one forget that seldom has a generation of composers had so many chances and been born at such a fortunate moment as this one: the cities have been erased - and one can build again from the ground up, without consideration of ruins and tasteless relics.

(Since the Nazis and the war had killed both his parents you would certainly have to say he was accentuating the positive.)
Stockhausen was merely parrotting a self-serving ideology that was perpetuated by many in West Germany right from May 8 1945 onwards. Hardly any historians have believed in the Stunde Null theory since about the 1960s and increasingly music historians who've studied the period in detail reject it as well. I've yet to find any corroborating evidence (and I've certainly been looking) to back up Stockhausen's account of his own childhood (from which he comes out almost totally blamelessly), which he started to talk about in the 1970s as far as I can tell (there may be some earlier references I haven't encountered yet); not saying it's true or untrue, but all such accounts inevitably need to be treated with a degree of scepticism.
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
oliver sudden
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« Reply #56 on: 12:16:18, 27-08-2008 »

I've yet to find any corroborating evidence (and I've certainly been looking) to back up Stockhausen's account of his own childhood (from which he comes out almost totally blamelessly), which he started to talk about in the 1970s as far as I can tell (there may be some earlier references I haven't encountered yet); not saying it's true or untrue, but all such accounts inevitably need to be treated with a degree of scepticism.
When you've found any concrete reason why in the absence of any other version of things we shouldn't take Stockhausen's word for it concerning either his childhood or his artistic aims after the war I'm sure you'll be letting us all know.
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #57 on: 12:25:37, 27-08-2008 »

I've yet to find any corroborating evidence (and I've certainly been looking) to back up Stockhausen's account of his own childhood (from which he comes out almost totally blamelessly), which he started to talk about in the 1970s as far as I can tell (there may be some earlier references I haven't encountered yet); not saying it's true or untrue, but all such accounts inevitably need to be treated with a degree of scepticism.
When you've found any concrete reason why in the absence of any other version of things we shouldn't take Stockhausen's word for it concerning either his childhood or his artistic aims after the war I'm sure you'll be letting us all know.
Certainly. One of the first things I learned when starting to study those who lived through the Third Reich is to treat all personal accounts with scepticism, a very important warning that's been stressed to me by most of the historians I've been in contact with. It's because of the type of unquestioning hagiography that has gone on for far too long with respect to the various individuals important in terms of the post-war avant-garde that so many fabrications have had to wait so long to be revealed for what they are. Only in the last couple of years have the wartime histories of Wolfgang Steinecke and Heinrich Strobel begun to emerge (Michael Custodis's research into Steinecke is quite breathtaking), and I have various archival and other information to add in both of their cases, and for various other individuals. A culture of deference seems to exist in the new music world to an extent that would be shocking in most other fields, and a significant number of people have taken advantage of it.
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
perfect wagnerite
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« Reply #58 on: 12:30:37, 27-08-2008 »

. I've yet to find any corroborating evidence (and I've certainly been looking) to back up Stockhausen's account of his own childhood (from which he comes out almost totally blamelessly)

 Huh

Call me a woolly old English liberal, but there's something in that sentence that makes me very uneasy.  Stockhausen was 16 when the war ended?
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At every one of these [classical] concerts in England you will find rows of weary people who are there, not because they really like classical music, but because they think they ought to like it. (Shaw, Don Juan in Hell)
Ron Dough
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« Reply #59 on: 12:38:21, 27-08-2008 »

I'd suggest that we're now on ground that's completely alienated from the original topic both geographically and culturally. Shouldn't this be split into a totally separate component?
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