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Author Topic: This is the 21st century  (Read 2709 times)
time_is_now
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« on: 13:04:45, 05-03-2007 »

So, we now have separate topics for 20th and 21st century. At first I didn't like this idea, thought there should be one 'New Music' thread, as before, in which people could move freely between C20th and 21st, but I'm coming round to the idea and interested to see how it pans out ...

What do people think are important differences between 20th- and 21st-century music? Or, what are some defining characteristics of 21st-century music (so far, or to come, if you're carrying your crystal ball)?
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trained-pianist
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« Reply #1 on: 19:25:32, 05-03-2007 »

I think it is an interesting topic. I was wondering how they will call music of XX century. Perhaps they will call it modern music. Than what is the name for XXI century music?
I think for the XXI century there are two trends emerging: music of complex nature, sometimes this music is very dissonant and involves used of new instruments and computers.
There is music that is more traditional in nature and much more simple. I would put minimalists in this cathegory.

I don't know much. I just want to continue this discussion.
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roslynmuse
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« Reply #2 on: 00:41:46, 06-03-2007 »

Maybe we should get a few votes on seminal works of the early years of this century and see if any pattern emerges?

My feeling is that, despite the theoretical possibility of widespread distribution of new music, in practice it is far more difficult to make a real splash now than ever before. Minimal opportunites for broadcast (in the UK, certainly); minimal interest from the larger record companies; a lot of CDs available from small companies but - how do we hear about them? And if we are lucky enough to know where to look, how then do we choose what to explore - and, for many of us, how do we find the time to listen seriously? (I'm still exploring old cassettes of Music in our Time, let alone Hear and Now!)

These threads could be very important for those of us not working all the time in the new music world to at least note some names and titles!
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Kittybriton
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Thank you for the music ...


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« Reply #3 on: 02:00:31, 06-03-2007 »

One of the places I drop by periodically to see what might have changed is epitonic.com where I found, among other things, Ellen Fullman's "Harmonic Cross Sweep" which everyone else in the family thinks sounds like a circular saw.
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aaron cassidy
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« Reply #4 on: 03:04:37, 06-03-2007 »

There is music that is more traditional in nature and much more simple. I would put minimalists in this cathegory.

I would absolutely, fundametally disagree.  If by 'minimalist' you mean Adams, Torke, the Bang on a Can crowd, etc., etc., then, yes, sure, that's more 'traditional in nature and much more simple,' but I'd also argue that it has very, very little to do w/ minimalism.

If minimalism means the work represented by, say, Reich & Glass in the late-60s and 70s, Tony Conrad, LaMonte Young, etc., then I'd have a hard time agreeing that these works are either simple or traditional.
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aaron cassidy
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« Reply #5 on: 03:35:04, 06-03-2007 »

Maybe we should get a few votes on seminal works of the early years of this century and see if any pattern emerges?

I teach a class here at Northwestern Univ. called "Music of the Last Decade."  So, granted, the last incarnation of the class included music that went back all the way to 1996, but ... here's a quick list of the composers/pieces we covered .....

Week 1:      2.  Thürmchen Ensemble/Verlag (Carola Bauckholt, Erik Oña, Caspar Johannes Walter, Karin Haussmann);
Week 2:      1.  Peter Ablinger
          2.  Richard Ayres; Christopher Fox
Week 3:      1.  Richard Barrett : Dark Matter
          2.  Barrett, cont. (Opening of the Mouth, Vanity, solo works)
Week 4:      1.  Wandelweiser group (Jurg Frey, Antoine Beuger, Michael Pisaro, Thomas Stiegler, etc.)
          2.  Beat Furrer
Week 5:      1.  Bang on a Can (Julia Wolff, David Lang, Michael Gordon) and Totalism (Kyle Gann, Phil Klein, Lois Vierk, etc.)
          2.  James Saunders; Helmut Oehring
Week 6:      1.  Thomas Adès; George Benjamin
          2.  Hanspeter Kyburz; Matthias Pintscher
Week 7:      1.  Bernhardt Lang; Olga Neuwirth
          2.  Rebecca Saunders; Stefano Gervasoni; Chaya Czernowin
Week 8:      1.  James Dillon; Pascal Dusapin
          2.  Georg Friedrich Haas; Kaija Saariaho
Week 9:      1.  Young Composers 1 (Sam Mirelman, Marianthi Papalexandri-Alexandri, Anthony Pateras, Jean-Francois LaPorte, Jennifer Walshe, Andrew Walsh)
          2.  Young Composers 2 (Vadim Karassikov, Wieland Hoban, Evan Johnson, Ming Tsao, Geoff Hannan, Andrew Hamilton)


I realize this is just a list of names and doesn't include specific pieces (except in the case of our own RB's Dark Matter, which, I must report, broke a speaker in my classroom), but ... it gives an idea of the sorts of recent developments I think might be useful for my students to know.  It's also worth pointing out that I intentionally avoided more 'established' older composers and their recent works.  Next year's version (if I'm still teaching ... but that's another story altogether) will include some of that stuff (recent Lachenmann, Ferneyhough, Sciarrino, Lucier, Birtwistle, etc.) & discussions of how the recent works differ from the older works.

If anyone is really interested, I'd be more than happy to send the full syllabus w/ pieces/readings/etc.

For kicks, I'll include a very quick and dashed-off list of a few works that I love that I think are particularly 'of their time,' works that could only be written (aesthetically, artistically, musically, historically, technologically, historiographically (?), etc.) in the 21st century, in some feeble effort to actually address the question at hand:

Peter Ablinger:  QUADRATUREN V ("MUSIK")
Richard Barrett:  Dark Matter
Jürg Frey:  2nd String Quartet
Richard Ayres:  No.35 (Overture)

and from my generation:
Sam Mirelman:  Study on the Tchaikovsky Piano Concerto No.1
Vadim Karrassikov:  November Morphology
Andrew Hamilton:  i like things
Jean-François Laporte:  Impression, pour violoncelle et surface ruguese


Goodness.  That's a pretty bizarre list.   ... I'm now determined to figure out what on earth these people/pieces have to do w/ one another.


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TimR-J
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« Reply #6 on: 10:24:04, 06-03-2007 »

Maybe we should get a few votes on seminal works of the early years of this century and see if any pattern emerges?

I teach a class here at Northwestern Univ. called "Music of the Last Decade."  So, granted, the last incarnation of the class included music that went back all the way to 1996, but ... here's a quick list of the composers/pieces we covered .....

Week 1:      2.  Thürmchen Ensemble/Verlag (Carola Bauckholt, Erik Oña, Caspar Johannes Walter, Karin Haussmann);
Week 2:      1.  Peter Ablinger
          2.  Richard Ayres; Christopher Fox
Week 3:      1.  Richard Barrett : Dark Matter
          2.  Barrett, cont. (Opening of the Mouth, Vanity, solo works)
Week 4:      1.  Wandelweiser group (Jurg Frey, Antoine Beuger, Michael Pisaro, Thomas Stiegler, etc.)
          2.  Beat Furrer
Week 5:      1.  Bang on a Can (Julia Wolff, David Lang, Michael Gordon) and Totalism (Kyle Gann, Phil Klein, Lois Vierk, etc.)
          2.  James Saunders; Helmut Oehring
Week 6:      1.  Thomas Adès; George Benjamin
          2.  Hanspeter Kyburz; Matthias Pintscher
Week 7:      1.  Bernhardt Lang; Olga Neuwirth
          2.  Rebecca Saunders; Stefano Gervasoni; Chaya Czernowin
Week 8:      1.  James Dillon; Pascal Dusapin
          2.  Georg Friedrich Haas; Kaija Saariaho
Week 9:      1.  Young Composers 1 (Sam Mirelman, Marianthi Papalexandri-Alexandri, Anthony Pateras, Jean-Francois LaPorte, Jennifer Walshe, Andrew Walsh)
          2.  Young Composers 2 (Vadim Karassikov, Wieland Hoban, Evan Johnson, Ming Tsao, Geoff Hannan, Andrew Hamilton)


I realize this is just a list of names and doesn't include specific pieces (except in the case of our own RB's Dark Matter, which, I must report, broke a speaker in my classroom), but ... it gives an idea of the sorts of recent developments I think might be useful for my students to know.  It's also worth pointing out that I intentionally avoided more 'established' older composers and their recent works.  Next year's version (if I'm still teaching ... but that's another story altogether) will include some of that stuff (recent Lachenmann, Ferneyhough, Sciarrino, Lucier, Birtwistle, etc.) & discussions of how the recent works differ from the older works.

If anyone is really interested, I'd be more than happy to send the full syllabus w/ pieces/readings/etc.

For kicks, I'll include a very quick and dashed-off list of a few works that I love that I think are particularly 'of their time,' works that could only be written (aesthetically, artistically, musically, historically, technologically, historiographically (?), etc.) in the 21st century, in some feeble effort to actually address the question at hand:

Peter Ablinger:  QUADRATUREN V ("MUSIK")
Richard Barrett:  Dark Matter
Jürg Frey:  2nd String Quartet
Richard Ayres:  No.35 (Overture)

and from my generation:
Sam Mirelman:  Study on the Tchaikovsky Piano Concerto No.1
Vadim Karrassikov:  November Morphology
Andrew Hamilton:  i like things
Jean-François Laporte:  Impression, pour violoncelle et surface ruguese


Goodness.  That's a pretty bizarre list.   ... I'm now determined to figure out what on earth these people/pieces have to do w/ one another.




Wow - I wish I'd had courses like that at university!
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trained-pianist
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« Reply #7 on: 10:29:03, 06-03-2007 »

Me too. I wish we had people like this here. We have absolutely nothing, but little squabals who is better. It is always better to talk to someone who knows what he is talking about and who is kindly disposed to other people and their interest, somebody who can pull musical community together, not saying : you are all worthless.
There is noone of a calibre to give any lectures here.
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George Garnett
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« Reply #8 on: 11:54:06, 06-03-2007 »

Many thanks for that list, Aaron. It's very helpful, even if they are only names to start with, to know who is out there working and what the territory looks like. There are an awful lot of names there that I don't know at all which rather underlines your point, I suppose. I like to think of myself as someone who at least takes a (very amateurish) interest in contemporary music and it is sadly true: the opportunities for hearing, well, the great majority of those on your list are few and far between and only a handful (less than half of them) have ever come my way. 

This is probably an old chestnut for those in the business but does anyone have any comments on the sort of sound materials that composers are finding interesting at the moment? I was thinking in particular of the relative interest in electronically produced/manipulated sound on the one hand and and the 'natural' sounds of good old blowing, scraping and banging instruments on the other.

There was a feeling at one time (gross over-simplification warning) that composers would turn more and more to electronic sound and that, partly as a result, the division of labour between the person who produced the score, and the people who performed it, might become conflated or dissolved away. The composer's 'score' would effectively be the realised performance which would be laid down in digital form or whatever rather than needing to be reconstructed and interpreted for each audience. Interestingly, it seems to me, this hasn't happened as much as might have been expected (or feared?), and the composer-performer relationship is as fruitful and well-delineated as ever. Mozart/Stadler, Brahms/Joachim and now.... well, I wouldn't want to embarrass anyone  Cheesy.  And, not only have traditional instruments retained their central place, but even in pure electronic music (contrary to expectation?) it seems to be turning out that the old composer-performer relationship has taken on a new lease of life with the emergence of a new breed of electronic performers who exist separately from composers. (Possibly just as well from the point of view of putting on concerts. I wouldn't travel very far to watch the duty manager switch a tape on and off, however good his sound system was Wink )

As I say, these are probably very hoary old chestnuts, but any thoughts on 'whither the electronic/traditional instrument divide?' or 'the performer is redundant: long live the performer'?
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martle
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« Reply #9 on: 12:21:56, 06-03-2007 »

Cue Richard, and others perhaps, on the subject of improvisation in this context, I hope! Seems to me, from a relatively inexperienced point of view, that this (in all its variety of forms) has a potentially very powerful role to play in music of the immediate future, as it has increasingly in music of the near-past.
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IgnorantRockFan
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« Reply #10 on: 16:13:30, 06-03-2007 »

At my one and only (so far!) concert of new electronic music, most of the eight pieces on offer appeared to be improvised. There was only one piece where the performers read from scores -- and that was apparently the only piece where the performers were not the composers themselves. In none of the performances did the composer simply "switch a tape on and off", though it wasn't always obvious what they *did* do.

If a piece is intended to be improvised, how is it possible for the composer to still call it "his" music if he isn't doing the improvisation himself? Does it depend on the degree of direction he gives before the performance starts? Is there a "maximum allowed deviation" from the composer's intent that a performer has to keep within? And how on earth do you communicate that to a performer?  Undecided

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Andy D
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« Reply #11 on: 16:43:15, 06-03-2007 »

This is a vast area for discussion and there are all sorts of different ways of giving the performers a chance to participate in the compositional process. This is not necessarily particularly experimental or avant-garde - lots of music written for amateur ensembles is non-specific about things such as pitch so that parts can be played by whatever instruments are available.
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trained-pianist
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« Reply #12 on: 18:47:43, 06-03-2007 »

Yes, it seems that composers now want more improvisational input from performers. They are not so constricting like they used to. At one point composers were satisfied to give performers figured bass to improvise and a lot of choices. Then composers wanted to control every aspect of performance with as many written in things (even embelishments) as possible. In Bach's time performers improvised imbelishments too.
Now the tied seems to turn the other way.
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aaron cassidy
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« Reply #13 on: 04:15:43, 07-03-2007 »

Many thanks for that list, Aaron. It's very helpful, even if they are only names to start with, to know who is out there working and what the territory looks like.

My pleasure, GG.  Actually, I was feeling ashamed that my contribution was only a cut-and-paste job.  I still would like to spend some time writing a bit about the relationships b/t these various composers/pieces/etc.  In the course I taught, we spent quite a lot of time talking about what the various aesthetic links were b/t the works.

It's worth pointing out, as well, that I could probably come up w/ a syllabus for another 10 wk course on the same subject and have a completely different list of names, which says something all on its own.  But ... more on that another day.  Right now I get to go prepare a lecture on Barthes, Benjamin, and Borges.  Fun fun.  Almost as much fun as teaching classes about music since 1996.
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #14 on: 11:14:04, 07-03-2007 »

In the course I taught, we spent quite a lot of time talking about what the various aesthetic links were b/t the works.

What were some of the conclusions?
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