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Ian Pace
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« Reply #135 on: 16:29:44, 21-10-2007 » |
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Michael,
This is not posturing, it's asking about what moderators will do when they moderate. What you are asking is akin to suggesting that an election should happen before matters of policy are made open.
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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Michael
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« Reply #136 on: 17:04:12, 21-10-2007 » |
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Michael,
This is not posturing, it's asking about what moderators will do when they moderate. What you are asking is akin to suggesting that an election should happen before matters of policy are made open.
No Ian, What I am suggesting is that until we have the new set of moderators, it is futile to argue over ifs and whens. The whole point of a moderation team is to moderate, as such, you need a certain trust in them, hence the voting. If you trust a moderation team, then why try to outline EXACTLY how they should act before they are even in post. Sure, the values by which a moderator will act will be top of the discussions, but take one step at a time and don't confuse matters. |
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C Dish
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« Reply #137 on: 17:20:52, 21-10-2007 » |
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There's no real precedent for an incumbent stepping down before an election. (That's assuming this is a democracy, which it is only in practice, not in theory)
It's a referendum on John's suitability as a moderator, not a referendum on his honesty, which I don't think anyone questions.
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inert fig here
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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #138 on: 17:32:00, 21-10-2007 » |
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Secondly, I'd like to see all three moderators upgraded at once.
Absolutely agreed. I would prefer to see the three highest-scoring candidates confirmed in their posts in one sweep. This isn't the US Presidential Primaries, and the thought of this electioneering continuing for another two rounds fills me with a mixture of misery and tedium aforehand  |
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
- Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
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Ron Dough
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« Reply #139 on: 17:49:14, 21-10-2007 » |
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Ian, perhaps you're not aware of how the way you act sometimes appears to others. You're obviously highly intelligent and passionately committed, but to me you often give the impression of being as single-minded and as intractable as a fundamentalist, seeing things solely in very black and white terms, assuming that your ideas and convictions are pre-eminent, and that anybody who holds different ideas (or even the same ideas less passionately) is just plain wrong, middle-class, fascist or whatever other term of belittlement you feel the situation merits.
You may want everybody else to live in the same world as you, but they're not obliged to, and your continual dogged worrying at subjects that people want to take at their own pace can sometimes become tiresome to those who have different opinons and priorities. This board was set up by Michael, and it's only fair that he is allowed to take a proprietorial interest in how things are to be done: I'd remind you that he's already been pushed to the limit where he was considering dropping the whole enterprise, and the last thing most of us want is for that threat to resurface. You already have another place where the rules can be different, to which you happily decamped: the fact that you should return to this side of the fence to try and dictate to its owner how this board should be run could be construed as an attempt at empire building.
Please try to understand that others have as much right to their beliefs and priorities as do you, and that just because they may not pronounce them from the battlements as frequently and loudly as you does not mean that they hold them any the less dear, nor that they will not stand their ground to protect what they feel is theirs.
Best wishes,
Ron
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #140 on: 19:21:59, 21-10-2007 » |
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Ian, perhaps you're not aware of how the way you act sometimes appears to others. You're obviously highly intelligent and passionately committed, but to me you often give the impression of being as single-minded and as intractable as a fundamentalist, seeing things solely in very black and white terms, assuming that your ideas and convictions are pre-eminent, and that anybody who holds different ideas (or even the same ideas less passionately) is just plain wrong, middle-class, fascist or whatever other term of belittlement you feel the situation merits. I'm sorry, I reject that very strongly. Just because I express my opinions and want to see debates through does not mean I'm un-open to other opinions. Outside of the narrow confines of opinion represented on this messageboard, you would find a lot of people who are much more cogent and uncompromising on some of the subjects I evoke (not least in the much-maligned academia). In terms of being middle-class, I think that's probably a pretty accurate description of a large percentage of classical music lovers - or do you think otherwise? In terms of some links between various 19th and 20th century aesthetic/political ideas and fascism - well, there are many people who have investigated such things in great detail. You may not think that's an acceptable thing to do; I don't necessarily agree with a lot of the conclusions, but don't think they can be ignored. You may want everybody else to live in the same world as you, but they're not obliged to, Actually, I would say that's more true of the ideals of the moderators here. I don't care which world other people live in, as long as they don't mind that with respect to me. and your continual dogged worrying at subjects that people want to take at their own pace can sometimes become tiresome to those who have different opinons and priorities. This board was set up by Michael, and it's only fair that he is allowed to take a proprietorial interest in how things are to be done: I'd remind you that he's already been pushed to the limit where he was considering dropping the whole enterprise, and the last thing most of us want is for that threat to resurface. You already have another place where the rules can be different, to which you happily decamped: the fact that you should return to this side of the fence to try and dictate to its owner how this board should be run could be construed as an attempt at empire building. I am one member, who has posted quite a lot here. I thought everyone is entitled to give their opinions here? I do feel increasingly that there is a very authoritarian streak from many quarters here, which prefers the 'less said the better' approach to everything. As for 'empire building', that is just a contemptuous slur which makes me disinclined to take much else you say or post seriously. Please try to understand that others have as much right to their beliefs and priorities as do you, Give me one case where I have tried to stop that - as opposed to other posters (including at the moment yourself) who seem to be doing that with respect to my own opinions and those of a few others. I'm not particularly enamoured of the petty-bourgeois view of classical music that one encounters frequently, it's true, and see how classical music or 'high culture' are primary agents in consolidating social division. Now, there are certainly quite a few posters here (or anywhere) who would subscribe to that view - fine, they are entitled to their opinions, as I am entitled to mine. But it seems like you wish to impose a view whereby those who simply don't accord with the consensus amongst a very particular community should keep quiet. That is far more intolerant than anything I might propose. |
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« Last Edit: 19:25:08, 21-10-2007 by Ian Pace »
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #141 on: 19:39:22, 21-10-2007 » |
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I'm sorry, I reject that very strongly. Just because I express my opinions and want to see debates through does not mean I'm un-open to other opinions.
To be really brutally honest here, I'm not all that concerned about what a lot of average classical-music listeners think about various things, knowing as I do the snobbish and smug culture that surrounds classical music per se.
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
- Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #142 on: 19:41:24, 21-10-2007 » |
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I'm sorry, I reject that very strongly. Just because I express my opinions and want to see debates through does not mean I'm un-open to other opinions.
To be really brutally honest here, I'm not all that concerned about what a lot of average classical-music listeners think about various things, knowing as I do the snobbish and smug culture that surrounds classical music per se.
There is a much bigger world out there beyond that of classical music listeners, however much they would like to see themselves as a microcosm of wider society. They aren't. |
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #143 on: 19:43:29, 21-10-2007 » |
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There is a much bigger world out there beyond that of classical music listeners, however much they would like to see themselves as a microcosm of wider society. They aren't. [/quote] 'Reality becomes its own ideology through the spell cast by its faithful duplication' - Adorno, 'The Schema of Mass Culture'. |
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
- Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
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Ron Dough
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« Reply #144 on: 20:00:19, 21-10-2007 » |
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Ian, perhaps you're not aware of how the way you act sometimes appears to others. You're obviously highly intelligent and passionately committed, but to me you often give the impression of being as single-minded and as intractable as a fundamentalist, seeing things solely in very black and white terms, assuming that your ideas and convictions are pre-eminent, and that anybody who holds different ideas (or even the same ideas less passionately) is just plain wrong, middle-class, fascist or whatever other term of belittlement you feel the situation merits. I'm sorry, I reject that very strongly. Just because I express my opinions and want to see debates through does not mean I'm un-open to other opinions. Outside of the narrow confines of opinion represented on this messageboard, you would find a lot of people who are much more cogent and uncompromising on some of the subjects I evoke (not least in the much-maligned academia). In terms of being middle-class, I think that's probably a pretty accurate description of a large percentage of classical music lovers - or do you think otherwise? In terms of some links between various 19th and 20th century aesthetic/political ideas and fascism - well, there are many people who have investigated such things in great detail. You may not think that's an acceptable thing to do; I don't necessarily agree with a lot of the conclusions, but don't think they can be ignored. You may want everybody else to live in the same world as you, but they're not obliged to, Actually, I would say that's more true of the ideals of the moderators here. I don't care which world other people live in, as long as they don't mind that with respect to me. and your continual dogged worrying at subjects that people want to take at their own pace can sometimes become tiresome to those who have different opinons and priorities. This board was set up by Michael, and it's only fair that he is allowed to take a proprietorial interest in how things are to be done: I'd remind you that he's already been pushed to the limit where he was considering dropping the whole enterprise, and the last thing most of us want is for that threat to resurface. You already have another place where the rules can be different, to which you happily decamped: the fact that you should return to this side of the fence to try and dictate to its owner how this board should be run could be construed as an attempt at empire building. I am one member, who has posted quite a lot here. I thought everyone is entitled to give their opinions here? I do feel increasingly that there is a very authoritarian streak from many quarters here, which prefers the 'less said the better' approach to everything. As for 'empire building', that is just a contemptuous slur which makes me disinclined to take much else you say or post seriously. Please try to understand that others have as much right to their beliefs and priorities as do you, Give me one case where I have tried to stop that - as opposed to other posters (including at the moment yourself) who seem to be doing that with respect to my own opinions and those of a few others. I'm not particularly enamoured of the petty-bourgeois view of classical music that one encounters frequently, it's true, and see how classical music or 'high culture' are primary agents in consolidating social division. Now, there are certainly quite a few posters here (or anywhere) who would subscribe to that view - fine, they are entitled to their opinions, as I am entitled to mine. But it seems like you wish to impose a view whereby those who simply don't accord with the consensus amongst a very particular community should keep quiet. That is far more intolerant than anything I might propose. But that's exactly the sort of reaction I'm positing, Ian. Up comes the label 'petty-bourgeois'? Now isn't that as much a consolidator of social division as anything? You make it quite plain that you don't approve of the views or the opinons of "quite a few posters here", yet become immediately defensive when someone questions yours. You say that you don't care which world other people want to live in, yet nonetheless you wish this board to change to conform with your views, even though there's now another board there for the purpose. Why, exactly? |
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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #145 on: 20:06:13, 21-10-2007 » |
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How I wish this board had a "recommend this post" facility...
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
- Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #146 on: 20:11:22, 21-10-2007 » |
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But that's exactly the sort of reaction I'm positing, Ian. Up comes the label 'petty-bourgeois'? Now isn't that as much a consolidator of social division as anything? Not at all, unless one believes that we live in a classless society, and that those who argue otherwise are merely consolidating social division. This article would suggest that an awful lot of British people do indeed believe that class is still very much a factor. Does a doctor who diagnoses cancer thus contribute to the consolidation of cancer? You make it quite plain that you don't approve of the views or the opinons of "quite a few posters here", I said I'm not particularly enamoured of some of them, but wouldn't expect to be of everyone, anywhere. yet become immediately defensive when someone questions yours. No, just say my bit against the customary personalised attacks in which you are now engaging as well. You say that you don't care which world other people want to live in, yet nonetheless you wish this board to change to conform with your views, even though there's now another board there for the purpose. Why, exactly? That's nonsense - I don't want the board to change to conform with my views, I just want some clarification about moderation policy - do you have such a problem with that? I don't find much of interest in the blow-by-blow accounts of pieces of music you post, nor do I expect you would find some of mine on music and society of interest. I can skip yours, you can skip mine. It seems some want to impose their own tastes on here, though. |
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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Michael
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« Reply #147 on: 20:16:57, 21-10-2007 » |
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You say that you don't care which world other people want to live in, yet nonetheless you wish this board to change to conform with your views, even though there's now another board there for the purpose. Why, exactly? That's nonsense - I don't want the board to change to conform with my views, I just want some clarification about moderation policy - do you have such a problem with that? I don't find much of interest in the blow-by-blow accounts of pieces of music you post, nor do I expect you would find some of mine on music and society of interest. I can skip yours, you can skip mine. It seems some want to impose their own tastes on here, though. With respect Ian, when the moderation team took the unpopular stance that politics was a banned subject, (both times, but the [edit: silly party] issue is unarguable) you argued adamantly that it was wrong to do so. If that isn't an example of pusing the point even though a subject is banned, I do not know what is. |
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richard barrett
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« Reply #148 on: 20:17:33, 21-10-2007 » |
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Can this please just stop now?
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MT Wessel
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« Reply #149 on: 20:22:17, 21-10-2007 » |
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Can this please just stop now? Seconded  |
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lignum crucis arbour scientiae
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