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John W
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« Reply #15 on: 23:27:55, 12-04-2007 » |
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John, you really could have found this out with a bit of Googling for "Cage" and "prepared piano", Yeah, but I was going out (just got back)  there was no room for such an ensemble in the venue, but there was a grand piano, so tried modifying the sound of that piano to .... Should have been a one-off then. Why are we still doing all this prepared-piano nonsense ? Richard/Bryn, There's plenty of scope with percussion instruments to achieve what Cage needed or what people need now without messing up a good piano. I've seen the old one-man-band fellas on the old London Palladium shows create a very individual sound that could be danced to  I'll have a look at that later. Thanks Bryn, Richard and Pim  I know I said I found the Sonata No 7 interesting but, when I think about it, if one of our kitchen cupboards fell off the wall that would sound really interesting too  John W |
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Bryn
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« Reply #16 on: 23:28:46, 12-04-2007 » |
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That wiki article is pretty good, isn't it, Richard. I must read it. |
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richard barrett
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« Reply #17 on: 23:35:20, 12-04-2007 » |
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There's plenty of scope with percussion instruments to achieve what Cage needed or what people need now without messing up a good piano It doesn't mess up the piano though - after all the bits and pieces are taken back out it's just as it was before. As for percussion instruments, you can certainly get a lot of different sounds out of them, but the more sounds you want the more instruments you need, and you obviously have never had to deal with hiring and/or transporting truckloads of percussion instruments to and from rehearsal and/or performance venues! Still, if Cage's piece sounds to you no more interesting than a kitchen cupboard falling off a wall, your other comments sort of fall into place... |
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John W
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« Reply #18 on: 00:05:33, 13-04-2007 » |
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It doesn't mess up the piano though - after all the bits and pieces are taken back out it's just as it was before. So, why not create a new instrument, surely the end result will be more interesting ? Maybe not. Modern electronic keyboards are interesting, kids love them and play them, but I expect a non-electronic percussive-variant keyboard would be as interesting as a knackered harpsichord. you obviously have never had to deal with hiring and/or transporting truckloads of percussion instruments to and from rehearsal and/or performance venues! True, but I have moved house three times. I expect your percussion expeditions were a lot easier than moving that Rolls-Royce of a piano that fell over yesterday  Maybe someone could stick it on a stage tomorrow and compose a Concerto for Damaged Bosendorfer Still, if Cage's piece sounds to you no more interesting than a kitchen cupboard falling off a wall, your other comments sort of fall into place...
Richard, I didn't say 'no more interesting', I said 'really interesting too'; there is a difference, and there lies hope, possibly John W |
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richard barrett
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« Reply #19 on: 00:23:33, 13-04-2007 » |
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So, why not create a new instrument, surely the end result will be more interesting ? Could be, but "inventing an instrument" is easier said than done, and once done... well, Harry Partch devoted a large part of his life to creating instruments, but not very many other composers have done that, and the result with Partch has been that since his death in 1971 his music is almost never performed. |
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John W
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« Reply #20 on: 00:30:16, 13-04-2007 » |
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"inventing an instrument" is easier said than done, and once done... well, Harry Partch devoted a large part of his life to creating instruments, but not very many other composers have done that, and the result with Partch has been that since his death in 1971 his music is almost never performed.
Richard, yes I became aware of Partch's efforts through this forum, exploring one of the quiz threads I think - see how informative this forum can be!!! I think what I'm getting at is that Cage's preparation stunt was just that, a stunt, and we know what some cunning people make of stunts John W |
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richard barrett
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« Reply #21 on: 00:40:43, 13-04-2007 » |
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Cage's preparation stunt was just that, a stunt Well, if it pleases you to think so. I think that the Sonatas and Interludes constitute one of the century's major contributions to keyboard music, though, and I'm sure many other contributors here also would, and maybe you would too if you'd listened to more than a twentieth of it. |
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John W
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« Reply #22 on: 00:54:05, 13-04-2007 » |
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.....and I'm sure many other contributors here also would, and maybe you would too if you'd listened to more than a twentieth of it. Quite possible. I think Pim has promised to make some clips of other Sonatas available on sendspace or somewhere, that would for sure make me listen because I like Pim  Actually, I like everyone here  John W |
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aaron cassidy
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« Reply #23 on: 05:38:36, 13-04-2007 » |
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I think what I'm getting at is that Cage's preparation stunt was just that, a stunt, and we know what some cunning people make of stunts John W I'm sorry, JW, but that's utterly moronic. The work is quite a lot of things, but a 'stunt' isn't one of them. The second best live concert experience of my life was a performance of the Sonatas & Interludes, and it still ranks among my favorite pieces. It is beautiful, inventive, expressive, impeccably crafted, well-structured, intimate, timbrally intricate, rhythmically engaging .... And the preparations (though not in this piece so much as its immediate predecessors) were utterly practical solutions to a substantial compositional problem. The piece is one of the masterworks of the 20th century. There was a thread around here in the early days of this board w/ recommendations on S&I recordings. Perhaps have a go at those and then report back? |
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marbleflugel
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« Reply #24 on: 06:14:28, 13-04-2007 » |
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I think JW s onto something when he talks about the inventiveness of jazz drummers (as he experienced them,
innovating out from what the late James Blades used to call the dance music '...Park Lane drone') which has
elevated percussiveness to instrumental parity now. I had got as far as seeing the necessity of Cage's mission
as a writer and thinker and composer of occasonal brilliance, but Aaron and Richard's comments show tghat Cage was playing the long game too compositionally, which I had doubted. I may be entirely wrong here, but I don't think Cage is as well-known yet outside ,er,post-classical school of improvisation as he might be, yet there seems
to be parallel process. What is changing is that philosphical probity is becoming visible in the everyday alchemy of the improviser( in resourcefulness, site specifics as well as line(s), and that may well be a Cageian legacy.So Sonatas and Interludes is now in my pending tray-thanks guys.
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« Last Edit: 07:00:44, 13-04-2007 by marbleflugel »
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'...A celebrity is someone who didn't get the attention they needed as an adult'
Arnold Brown
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #25 on: 07:18:14, 13-04-2007 » |
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The second best live concert experience of my life That's a very Shakespearian turn of phrase if I may say so. Are we allowed to know where your best bed went? |
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martle
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« Reply #26 on: 09:29:54, 13-04-2007 » |
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If further support for Sonatas and Interludes is needed, count me in. A completely engaging, serious and sustained piece of work, well worth hearing in its entirety. And wasn't this the work which blew Boulez away, and triggered the infamous Cage/ Boulez colrrespondence?
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Green. Always green.
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John W
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« Reply #27 on: 10:32:48, 13-04-2007 » |
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Well, as I said earlier, I will make an effort to listen to more of the Cage Sonatas; remember all I've heard is what Rob played a couple of days ago and I've almost forgotten the sounds. Rob will be unlikely to play more so I hope Pim can help me out. If I were to enjoy the music then I would ask myself why be critical of the methods used to create the music  |
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pim_derks
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« Reply #28 on: 10:35:06, 13-04-2007 » |
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I think Pim has promised to make some clips of other Sonatas available on sendspace or somewhere, that would for sure make me listen because I like Pim  Well, here's an example of two different performances of Cage's Fifth Sonata. This performance is by Gérard Frémy: http://www.sendspace.com/file/7p87gzHere's the same sonata, performed by Aleck Karis: http://www.sendspace.com/file/857ftbA sonata from this cycle I really like is number twelve. Here it is played by Aleck Karis: http://www.sendspace.com/file/qm5me6I find this recording by Karis a bit too noisy, but it's part of a set of two CD's that also includes a very interesting and funny lecture by Cage. The prepared piano never became a very popular instrument, but it had a certain "subversive" charm in Soviet Russia (just like the harpsichord had). Composers like Alfred Schnittke ( First Concerto Grosso) and Arvo Part ( Tabula Rasa) wrote music for the instrument. |
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"People hate anything well made. It gives them a guilty conscience." John Betjeman
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richard barrett
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« Reply #29 on: 10:52:03, 13-04-2007 » |
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The prepared piano never became a very popular instrument Not with composers, maybe, but in improvised music it's a very widespread way of doing things, with very different results in the hands of people like Chris Burn, Agusti Fernandez, Cor Fuhler, Wolfgang Mitterer, Marco Trevisani and many others... ... and Andrea Neumann who has (John might like this) had an instrument built to her own specifications: a portable piano frame, with strings but without action or keyboard:  |
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