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Author Topic: Brahms the Allusionist  (Read 1931 times)
Ian Pace
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« Reply #75 on: 14:50:17, 24-01-2008 »

Bruckner is, in fact, one of those second-rate composers who was elevated to first-rank status by dint of Austrian nationality - had he been born in Norway he'd be utterly obscure.
Curiously, I think the reevaluation and freeing-up of Bruckner from the expectations aroused by 19th- and earlier 20th-century reception history would actually have been helped if he'd been from Scandinavia. (I imagine he'd have a similar reception history to Sibelius if so.)

Ah, I see Ian's made a similar point.
It's a slightly different point to mine, but equally important. Bruckner languished in relative obscurity for some time because of the forces ranged against him in Vienna (led by Hanslick in particular), having been associated with the Wagnerians. His music itself did meet with very positive acclaim from audiences, but having the most influential critic ranged against you* militated against a consistent career. I'm imagining that you are implying that had he pursued his path in a different country, he would have been less caught in such polemics and been allowed to flourish more unhindered (do correct me if I'm wrong)?

*As an example of the ferociousness of his opposition, read what Hanslick said about the premiere of the Eight Symphony: one finds 'immediate juxtaposition of dry schoolroom counterpoint with unbounded exaltation. Thus, tossed about between intoxication and desolation, we arrive at no definite impression and enjoy no artistic pleasure. Everything flows, without clarity and without order, willy-nilly into dismal long-windedness. In each of the four movements, and most frequently in the first and third, there are interesting passages and flashes of genius - if only all the rest were not there!' and 'In the Adagio we behold nothing less than 'the all-loving Father of Mankind in all His infinite mercy!' Since this Adagio lasts exactly twenty-eight minutes or about as long as an entire Beethoven symphony, we cannot complain of being denied ample time for the contemplation of the rare vision. At long last, the Finale - which, with its baroque themes, its confused structure and inhuman din, strikes us only as a model of tastelessness - represents, according to the programme, 'Heroism in the Service of the Divine!''
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
Ian Pace
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« Reply #76 on: 14:54:46, 24-01-2008 »

Bohemians like, er, Smetana (heavily indebted to Liszt),
Ah yes, the Hungarian, Ferencs Liszt Smiley  
Whose first language was German, was born in the Habsburg Empire, leaving the Hungarian portion of that from which he came at the age of 9, who lived and worked in Weimar for 14 years, then returned later for a further 17, and only finally moved back for parts of the year to Hungary for the last ten years of his life (his main residence was still Weimar). And was considered the most important figure in the Neuedeutsche Schule (it's generally believed that the manifesto that Brahms, Joachim et al signed was primarily directed against Liszt rather than Wagner).
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
time_is_now
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« Reply #77 on: 15:00:30, 24-01-2008 »

It's a slightly different point to mine, but equally important. Bruckner languished in relative obscurity for some time because of the forces ranged against him in Vienna (led by Hanslick in particular), having been associated with the Wagnerians. His music itself did meet with very positive acclaim from audiences, but having the most influential critic ranged against you* militated against a consistent career. I'm imagining that you are implying that had he pursued his path in a different country, he would have been less caught in such polemics and been allowed to flourish more unhindered?
Partly that, but also that even if he'd been neglected for some time after his death, the climate of reevaluation of non-Austro-German composers in the latter part of the 20th century would I think have favoured a Norwegian composer of harmonically and structurally unorthodox, large-scale symphonies such as Bruckner's.
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
Ian Pace
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« Reply #78 on: 15:01:25, 24-01-2008 »

Oooh, you don't think it was slightly controversial, do you? Roll Eyes   But you see the point about this so-called continuum of "German serious music"...  that Borodin's excellent symphonies get sidelined, because of the irrational "two legs bad, four legs German" thought process?  And an "Observer's Book Of Great Composers" legacy that doles-out brownie-points to those who write symphonies and oratorios, but denies them to those who write operas?
Like Verdi and Wagner, say? Opera certainly has had a mixed reputation in all sorts of quarters for many centuries, but I doubt many histories of music would deny the importance and significant contribution of those two figures. And for all the symphonies and oratorios that are now canonised, I'm sure there are countless others from the time that are now quite reasonably forgotten.

One composer passionately and explicitly opposed to the whole German heritage, certainly that from Beethoven onwards, was Debussy (though few would now deny his indebtedness to Wagner, for all his ambivalence about the latter's work), but his canonical position seems thoroughly secure. Same is true for Stravinsky.
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
opilec
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« Reply #79 on: 15:17:04, 24-01-2008 »

Like Verdi and Wagner, say?
They only get in because one wrote a string quartet and the other wrote a symphony! Cheesy
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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #80 on: 15:19:09, 24-01-2008 »

what Hanslick said about the premiere of the Eight Symphony: one finds 'immediate juxtaposition of dry schoolroom counterpoint with unbounded exaltation. Thus, tossed about between intoxication and desolation, we arrive at no definite impression and enjoy no artistic pleasure. Everything flows, without clarity and without order, willy-nilly into dismal long-windedness. In each of the four movements, and most frequently in the first and third, there are interesting passages and flashes of genius - if only all the rest were not there!' and 'In the Adagio we behold nothing less than 'the all-loving Father of Mankind in all His infinite mercy!' Since this Adagio lasts exactly twenty-eight minutes or about as long as an entire Beethoven symphony, we cannot complain of being denied ample time for the contemplation of the rare vision. At long last, the Finale - which, with its baroque themes, its confused structure and inhuman din, strikes us only as a model of tastelessness - represents, according to the programme, 'Heroism in the Service of the Divine!''

Extremely perceptive criticism, I would say - every word of it is true.  The only thing missing is a mention of Bruckner's woefully boring orchestration, which I have mentioned before.

Quote
One composer passionately and explicitly opposed to the whole German heritage, certainly that from Beethoven onwards, was Debussy (though few would now deny his indebtedness to Wagner, for all his ambivalence about the latter's work),

Yes, yes, I know the remark about "Old Klingsor".  Rather more active on a nationalist level (I think Debussy was more concerned about the quality of Wagner's music, rather than its national origins) were Chausson, d'Indy, and Lalo.  Chausson and d'Indy had attended the premiere of PARSIFAL - presumably to have all their worst fears confirmed.  Chausson then essayed an opera, LE ROI ARTHUS, which he conceived as being a Frenchman's retort to what had so displeased him in PARSIFAL.  Lalo's LE ROI D'YS also dates from the immediate fall-out of PARSIFAL,  with similar intentions.  Meanwhile Verdi was writing FALSTAFF and Mussorgsky had died unable to complete KHOVANSCHINA...  but their primarily failing was not being German...

Quote
harmonically and structurally unorthodox, large-scale symphonies such as Bruckner's

Is that the newspeak with which the woeful ramblings identified by Hanslick have been rebadged?  Wink

But my remarks about the way in which Bruckner is lauded beyond any inherent merit in his music referred to his position today, and not during the C19th.  
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
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opilec
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« Reply #81 on: 15:26:24, 24-01-2008 »

But my remarks about the way in which Bruckner is lauded beyond any inherent merit in his music referred to his position today, and not during the C19th. 
Whereas a discussion at the level of "my composer's better than yours" does have inherent merit? Wink
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time_is_now
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« Reply #82 on: 15:28:44, 24-01-2008 »

But my remarks about the way in which Bruckner is lauded beyond any inherent merit in his music referred to his position today, and not during the C19th.  
Quite. Which is why I suggested that he'd be viewed today rather like Sibelius if he had been, say, Norwegian.
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
George Garnett
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« Reply #83 on: 15:35:32, 24-01-2008 »

The only thing missing is a mention of Bruckner's woefully boring orchestration, which I have mentioned before.  

I can't agree. For me it conjures up to perfection the fjords, the frozen pine forests, the grandeur of the mountains, dancing trolls, the distant clash of reindeer antlers, the shimmer of the Aurora Borealis, the mournful cry of the elusive Norwegian Blue. How can you be deaf to all this?
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #84 on: 15:36:31, 24-01-2008 »

(I think Debussy was more concerned about the quality of Wagner's music, rather than its national origins)
Debussy was writing about World War One as a chance to defeat the 'two Richards' (Wagner and Strauss), also talking about how 'French art needs to take revenge quite as seriously as the French army does' (and there are many similar sentiments, in the context of talking about Beethoven, Wagner, and others). His nationalism was pretty blatant.
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
Ian Pace
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« Reply #85 on: 15:37:03, 24-01-2008 »

The only thing missing is a mention of Bruckner's woefully boring orchestration, which I have mentioned before.  

I can't agree. For me it conjures up to perfection the fjords, the frozen pine forests, the grandeur of the mountains, dancing trolls, the distant clash of reindeer antlers, the shimmer of the Aurora Borealis, the mournful cry of the elusive Norwegian Blue. How can you be deaf to all this?
Ah, you've perfectly described the music's 'Nordic origins', I reckon Wink
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
opilec
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« Reply #86 on: 15:38:43, 24-01-2008 »

The only thing missing is a mention of Bruckner's woefully boring orchestration, which I have mentioned before. 

I can't agree. For me it conjures up to perfection the fjords, the frozen pine forests, the grandeur of the mountains, dancing trolls, the distant clash of reindeer antlers, the shimmer of the Aurora Borealis, the mournful cry of the elusive Norwegian Blue. How can you be deaf to all this?



"This isn't an argument, it's just contradiction."
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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #87 on: 15:44:32, 24-01-2008 »

How can you be deaf to all this?

Remarkably easy, evidently Sad  I have listened to his entire output, and tried hard to find something to admire in it.  I have even sung his awful TE DEUM,  which is surely the low watermark.  All I hear is an organist in charge of an orchestra, and presumably a captive audience.  I sometimes try relistening to the symphonies,  but I have to take them off after about 10-15 minutes.
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
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time_is_now
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« Reply #88 on: 15:55:19, 24-01-2008 »

(I think Debussy was more concerned about the quality of Wagner's music, rather than its national origins)
Debussy was writing about World War One as a chance to defeat the 'two Richards' (Wagner and Strauss), also talking about how 'French art needs to take revenge quite as seriously as the French army does' (and there are many similar sentiments, in the context of talking about Beethoven, Wagner, and others). His nationalism was pretty blatant.
Yes, Debussy's nationalism is pretty well-known, although I'm not sure how strongly it manifested itself before World War One (Ian may be able to provide more source material on this). Certainly by 1915 he was describing himself as 'Claude Debussy, musicien français' on the title page of the projected Six Sonates, and there are nationalistic allusions in the finale of En blanc et noir.

On Debussy's love-hate relationship with Wagner, this (it seems to be out of print) is worth a read - even, I'd venture to suggest, for those not normally enamoured of its author.
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
Ian Pace
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« Reply #89 on: 16:23:40, 24-01-2008 »

I'll dig out what I have of Debussy's writings and correspondence later (I don't own my own copies of the collected French Correspondance, which has much important material in; found various stuff that I stored in a file when doing a bit of research into this matter, alas lost the file when a computer went down (though the writing for which it was used was preserved)). But as Bruckner's orchestration was mentioned, I thought I'd post what Hanslick had to say on that in the same review of the Eighth Symphony: ' Wagnerian orchestral effects are met on every hand, such as the tremolos of the violinist divisi in the highest position, harp arpeggios over muffled chords in the trombones, and, added to all that, the newest achievements of the Siegfried tubas.' (Wagner tubas were also known as Siegfried tubas).

I reckon Reiner would like passages such as the following: 'From him [Josef Schalk, pianist and composer, pupil of Bruckner, and writer] we learned that the irksome humming theme of the first movement represents the figure of the Aeschylean Prometheus. An especially tiresome part of this movement is charmingly described as 'most awful loneliness and quiet'. Right next to Prometheus stands Der deutsche Michl [a term used to represent a kind of sturdy, oafish peasant]. Had a critic uttered this blasphemy, he would probably have been stoned by the Bruckner disciples. But it was the composer himself who gave the Scherzo the name of Der deutsche Michl, as is plain to be seen in black and white in the programme. With this authentic pronouncement before him, however, the commentator (Schalk) doesn't hesitate to find in the Michl-Scherzo 'the deeds and sufferings of Prometheus reduced in parody to the smallest scale.''
« Last Edit: 16:27:47, 24-01-2008 by Ian Pace » Logged

'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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