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Author Topic: Brahms the Allusionist  (Read 1931 times)
richard barrett
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« Reply #90 on: 16:54:45, 24-01-2008 »

I have listened to his entire output, and tried hard to find something to admire in it. 

Maybe the "entire output" thing is the problem. Now I do admire Bruckner (a lot more than I do Sibelius), though his choral music leaves me cold, but then so does Brahms's - but sometimes I think that his last two symphonies make all the others relatively unnecessary. At other times I don't think that.

Returning to Brahms's music, I was thinking that perhaps the reason why in the end I can't feel very close to it is that, to speak probably too metaphorically, it's too explicit, leaving nothing to the listener's imagination, he seems unaware of the possibility of implying something ("implying" isn't really the word but I hope I'm getting across something of what I'm trying to say) rather than stating it in forthright terms and then underlining it for good measure. This I think is why so many people regard his music as contrived rather than "felt", even if it isn't - it's maybe a bit like listening to someone declaring their love using legally precise terminology.
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time_is_now
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« Reply #91 on: 17:13:22, 24-01-2008 »

I hope I'm getting across something of what I'm trying to say ... it's maybe a bit like listening to someone declaring their love using legally precise terminology ...
I understand what you're saying, but I just don't experience Brahms's music like that at all. (It's strange, I've never had this Brahms problem that almost everyone else seems to have had to overcome at some point ...) To me it's subtle music, both technically and emotionally; deep rather than obvious, and leaving plenty of room for the listener's imagination. How curious; maybe we just know different pieces or something.
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #92 on: 17:18:07, 24-01-2008 »

I'm with tinners  Grin
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #93 on: 17:31:27, 24-01-2008 »

My feelings are closer to those of ollie and t-i-n, but they haven't always been like that. When I've been at my most ungenerous to Brahms (who I really did not like through my 20s) it was less to do with the music being over-explicit (I really don't feel that at all, and never have done - I've heard the Second Symphony many many times, and still it remains mysterious to me in many ways - and that's true of much other Brahms, it rarely seems totally 'graspable' (which I intend as a compliment)) rather that it can seem somewhat 'over-composed' at times. The First Symphony and particularly First String Quartet do suffer a bit from this quality to my ears - he can't let a few notes go by without subjecting them to intense development, sometimes worked fully through by the time one has reached a point 8 bars later or something! But not everything or even most of the work is like that, by any means. Listen for example to the expansive melody in the First String Quintet, or some of the mid-period songs. And elsewhere, at his very best, he manages to marry a certain vocal lyricism or allusion to folk material with the very highest degree of developmental and contrapuntal skill - I would go so far as to compare this innovation (which to my ears far surpassed the interesting but ultimately rather surface-focused types of 'Hungarian gypsy' exoticism in much of Liszt) with the marrying of Italianate melodic traditions with Franco-Flemish polyphony that occurred in German music in the 18th century.

In terms of maligned genres (as was suggested of opera), I'd offer up choral music in general as one such candidate! So much wonderful stuff from many composers (I'm not just thinking of German ones - take the amazing stuff of Janáček, say) but which is usually assigned a relatively marginal position within composers' output.
« Last Edit: 17:40:44, 24-01-2008 by Ian Pace » Logged

'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
ahinton
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« Reply #94 on: 17:41:26, 24-01-2008 »

I'm with tinners  Grin
Likewise; I, too, can understand well the principle of what Richard is saying but, like t_i_n, I just cannot hear Brahms in that way.
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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #95 on: 17:43:33, 24-01-2008 »

the reason why in the end I can't feel very close to it is that, to speak probably too metaphorically, it's too explicit, leaving nothing to the listener's imagination, he seems unaware of the possibility of implying something

Yes, I identify very closely with this feeling about Brahms...  he's not a "readerly" composer, and I feel that he's thrown down the glove and said "like it or lump it, Joh. Brahms, so there".   It's this arrogance in his music - and in much other German music - that leaves me feeling that it's not written for listeners..  it's written so Brahms could get it out of his system.  I feel I've been bludgeoned whenever I listen to him.  I'm sure it's all been very worthy, but it hasn't involved me at all.
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strinasacchi
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« Reply #96 on: 18:02:11, 24-01-2008 »

*Warning: extremely intuitive and not at all scholarly post below*


When I first started learning Brahms's violin concerto, I read a critique of the premičre that said something like, "Brahms creates a magnificent pedestal, only then to place another pedestal on top of it."  Maybe I'm much too suggestible, but I can see how someone might feel Brahms's music struggles and strives for something it never quite reaches, or even deliberately turns away from just as it's getting there.  I don't mind this in small doses - it can even be quite powerful.  But too much and it gets frustrating.
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #97 on: 18:07:37, 24-01-2008 »

the reason why in the end I can't feel very close to it is that, to speak probably too metaphorically, it's too explicit, leaving nothing to the listener's imagination, he seems unaware of the possibility of implying something

Yes, I identify very closely with this feeling about Brahms...  he's not a "readerly" composer, and I feel that he's thrown down the glove and said "like it or lump it, Joh. Brahms, so there".   It's this arrogance in his music - and in much other German music - that leaves me feeling that it's not written for listeners..  it's written so Brahms could get it out of his system.  I feel I've been bludgeoned whenever I listen to him.  I'm sure it's all been very worthy, but it hasn't involved me at all.
Brahms's music certainly exhibits has an inward and even private quality (as apparently, also did his playing, which was criticised on these grounds in opposition to the more flamboyant virtuosi of his time - Brahms seemed to have little interest in 'playing out' to his audience). But that to me produces the very opposite result of that described above, it makes it more rather than less 'readerly', less imposing certainly than the more extroverted rhetoric of many of his contemporaries. In terms of such an approach being 'arrogant', that sort of criticism has been made of various composers over a long period of time (not least of Beethoven, right up until the present day), and ties in very closely with the Taruskin-type polemics against a post-Beethovenian aesthetic whereby music went wrong when it began to be written according to the desires of the producers rather than consumers (there's some very interesting stuff in John Butt's Playing with History having a go at these sorts of arguments of Taruskin, in their earlier guise in Text and Act). Personally, I doubt very much lasting music has been written primarily by trying to second-guess listeners' desires, and the best pre-Beethovenian music was produced in such a way despite the structures under which the composers worked, rather than because of them (and the same goes of composers today trying to satisfy other institutions and the marketplace).
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
Bryn
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« Reply #98 on: 18:08:45, 24-01-2008 »

Yep. Count me in, too. There again, Brahms's music has suffered at the hands of the heavy, pompous, over-stated school of conducting. Most of his music makes me want to dance. Listen to Mackerras of Norrington conducting the Symphonies and the music comes to life anew.
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time_is_now
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« Reply #99 on: 18:26:28, 24-01-2008 »

But that to me produces the very opposite result of that described above
Indeed. I can relate what strina says, about music that 'struggles and strives for something it never quite reaches, or even deliberately turns away from just as it's getting there', to my experience of Brahms much more readily (although I don't personally find it a big problem), but that's surely the opposite of saying that the music is 'too explicit, leaving nothing to the listener's imagination, he seems unaware of the possibility of implying something ... rather than stating it in forthright terms and then underlining it for good measure'.
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
Antheil
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« Reply #100 on: 18:35:50, 24-01-2008 »

Most of his music makes me want to dance

Blimey Bryn, when I last asked you to trip the light fantastic with me you said you didn't like to dance!  (Although I did hear you did a mean fox-trot once!)  I now imagine you floating airily around the front parlour  Smiley

So, as Brahms doesn't do it for me at all  I guess I'll search out those that you recommend and see if it makes me want to dance.
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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #101 on: 18:43:19, 24-01-2008 »

but that's surely the opposite of saying that the music is 'too explicit, leaving nothing to the listener's imagination, he seems unaware of the possibility of implying something ... rather than stating it in forthright terms and then underlining it for good measure'.

Which brings us round to where the thread started...  does Brahms ever allude, or does he just "state it in forthright terms and then underline it for good measure"?

Perhaps there is some underlying conclusion about the role of an artist to society...  that a German artist feels no responsibility to his audience, who must instead strive to accept and understand his art-work...   whereas there is a more interactive relationship in other countries?

I listen to Brahms with a sense of duty - I see how carefully written his music is, how taut his first-movement logic is,  all is high-quality and very competently done.   But there's no marvel in it. 
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
-  Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
perfect wagnerite
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« Reply #102 on: 18:45:54, 24-01-2008 »

Another non-scholarly, gut reaction coming up .....

I'm with Bryn on this one.  Brahms' music seems to me to be direct and full of visceral emotion; in the right sort of performance the power and exhilaration are overwhelming.  And to my ears there are passages in Brahms that rank among the most sheerly beautiful music I have ever heard - the opening of the slow movement of the Third Symphony, or that oboe melody at "dass sie ruhen von ihren Arbeit" in the finale of the Requiem.

 Chausson and d'Indy had attended the premiere of PARSIFAL - presumably to have all their worst fears confirmed.  Chausson then essayed an opera, LE ROI ARTHUS, which he conceived as being a Frenchman's retort to what had so displeased him in PARSIFAL.

Really?  I'd have said Le Roi Arthus had Wagner-worship written over every bar ....
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #103 on: 18:46:03, 24-01-2008 »

or does he just "state it in forthright terms and then underline it for good measure"?

You mean, like some of us are doing on this thread with our Brahms aversions?

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ahinton
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« Reply #104 on: 18:48:05, 24-01-2008 »

the reason why in the end I can't feel very close to it is that, to speak probably too metaphorically, it's too explicit, leaving nothing to the listener's imagination, he seems unaware of the possibility of implying something

Yes, I identify very closely with this feeling about Brahms...  he's not a "readerly" composer, and I feel that he's thrown down the glove and said "like it or lump it, Joh. Brahms, so there".   It's this arrogance in his music - and in much other German music - that leaves me feeling that it's not written for listeners..  it's written so Brahms could get it out of his system.  I feel I've been bludgeoned whenever I listen to him.  I'm sure it's all been very worthy, but it hasn't involved me at all.
Brahms's music certainly exhibits has an inward and even private quality (as apparently, also did his playing, which was criticised on these grounds in opposition to the more flamboyant virtuosi of his time - Brahms seemed to have little interest in 'playing out' to his audience). But that to me produces the very opposite result of that described above, it makes it more rather than less 'readerly', less imposing certainly than the more extroverted rhetoric of many of his contemporaries. In terms of such an approach being 'arrogant'...
I'm with you on all of this - but I'd like to add that Brahms is by no means the only composer some of whose music exhibits such qualities (not that you're suggesting anything of the sort), yet there is no synonymity between that and the notion that listeners will be disregarded, put off, distanced, etc. Beethoven's Op. 109 is full of a similar kind of innigkeit, yet this itself communicates itself to listeners powerfully.

Performance is always an issue in such considerations. I remember Sorabji bemoaning at various times "dull, colourless, pompous, leaden, square-toed, Teutonic Brahms" and then going on to say that listening to the symphonies conducted by Toscanini provides such an antidote to all that kind of impression that one might be forgiven for thinking that he'd re-edited every bar - which, as Sorabji knew well, he had not. I don't think that we hear that awful kind of Brahms performance so much nowadays as he would likely have done - and his remarks were, in any case, made many years ago before the Norringtons et al were on the scene in any case - yet the impression somehow remains, at least for some, that Brahms frequently overstates, underlines, tells it all up front, leaves nothing to the imagination, etc. I do find this quite intriguing!
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