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tonybob
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« on: 19:14:31, 17-03-2007 » |
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seems strange that Mr Wagner has missed out on having his own thread, so here it is!
may i get the ball rolling by saying that act 2 of Die Walkure is probably the best music he ever wrote?
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sososo s & i.
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reiner_torheit
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« Reply #1 on: 20:01:41, 17-03-2007 » |
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Act 2 of Walkure would have been the best music Wagner ever wrote... had he not then written Act 3  I'd contend that "O, heil'ge Wonne!" is the best 16 bars he ever wrote  |
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They say travel broadens the mind - but in many cases travel has made the mind not exactly broader, but thicker.
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Tony Watson
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« Reply #2 on: 20:56:50, 17-03-2007 » |
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Don't forget that Gotterdammerung is on BBC2 tonight at 9.30pm.
"Ewig war ich" (the Siegfried idyll music) always does it for me even though, since it's one of the few moments in the Ring when Wagner gets close to putting in an aria, it's not typical of the whole.
I've been listening quite a lot to the 1955 Keilberth Ring over the last couple of months and it grows on me more and more. Of course, being a live recording it has its pluses and minuses and I find with Wagner (less so with other operatic composers) that neither a live recording nor a studio one is wholly satisfactory. So I have to have both Keilberth and Solti. And on the subject of recordings, I have never yet been overwhelmed by the anvils in Das Rheingold, when I feel I should be. Not even in the Solti version when they went to so much trouble over it.
I particularly like the slow, atmospheric starts in Wagner. Rheingold and Lohengrin of course but also Siegfried. Those bassoons, then the tuba, then the violas and eventually Mime's monologue. What I am less at ease with is the stirring openings, in particular act three of Lohengrin (wonderful, exciting music but does it really evoke the wedding feast?) and act two of Walkure (sorry, tonybob). It's Wagner making a splash but there seems to be a certain amount of empty rhetoric there. Then again, beginning of act three, what can I say?
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offbeat
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« Reply #3 on: 22:22:48, 17-03-2007 » |
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The problem i find in appreciating Wagner (in particular the Ring Cycle) is there are so many wonderful bits but imo so many long boring periods also - i realise i should be shot or even worse despatched to Classic Fm but my attention span is limited over such a long series of musical time - wonder if any Wagner experts can tell me what im missing and the correct way to listen to Wagner without skipping to the next favourite bit  |
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tonybob
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« Reply #4 on: 23:23:15, 17-03-2007 » |
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The problem i find in appreciating Wagner (in particular the Ring Cycle) is there are so many wonderful bits but imo so many long boring periods also - i realise i should be shot or even worse despatched to Classic Fm but my attention span is limited over such a long series of musical time - wonder if any Wagner experts can tell me what im missing and the correct way to listen to Wagner without skipping to the next favourite bit following a good translation is the key. also getting to know the leitmotives - they are like having a satnav in an opera... |
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sososo s & i.
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richard barrett
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« Reply #5 on: 23:42:27, 17-03-2007 » |
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Offbeat,
of course there's no "correct" way to listen to Wagner or to any other composer! but my way into it, only two or three years ago actually, previous to which I hadn't taken much notice of Wagner, was twofold. Firstly by getting to know "Rheingold" before moving on from there - it isn't so long anyway, and introduces most of the main (musical/mythical) ideas which develop further (and gain in complexity and sophistication) in the succeeding operas. Secondly (and this was actually the reason I decided to get to know Wagner's music properly) by reading Bryan Magee's book "Wagner and Philosophy", which is the most convincing explanation I've read of the reasons and motivations behind the music, and therefore behind the particular form it takes. (I just found the book in an airport while desperate for some reading material, and though I owned only one Wagner recording at the time, within a few weeks of reading the book I'd amassed a pile of them.)
I've just been watching some of the televised "Götterdämmerung". The TV listings tell me that Hagen is played by John Tomlinson, although one glance at the broadcast confirms that this is a misprint and the part is actually played by Ricky Tomlinson.
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reiner_torheit
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« Reply #6 on: 23:49:43, 17-03-2007 » |
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best way to listen to Wagner... is not to listen to him but to watch him It's theatrical music and devised as "total art-work" (ie a multi-media experience), by the composer's own intentions. And you can keep the subtitles turned on as you watch :-) Unless you have phenomenally good German (to understand all the purposely archaic vocabulary) you haven't a hope (as already pointed out!) without the translation in front of you somewhere - subtitles are better than looking at a printed text, anyhow. Start with THE FLYING DUTCHMAN - not only one of his finest works, but with a gripping story, not too many longeurs, and there are multiple good productions available on DVD for the same price as CDs. |
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They say travel broadens the mind - but in many cases travel has made the mind not exactly broader, but thicker.
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richard barrett
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« Reply #7 on: 23:59:21, 17-03-2007 » |
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Yes, Reiner, of course you're right about watching rather than just listening, although actually Wagner's total artwork depended on being enveloped by the experience in a theatre, and personally I've come to realise that I usually prefer just listening to watching through the restrictive medium of a TV set. I'm sure you'd agree that, when you see it in its intended setting, everything somehow falls into place (except in a stupid production of which there are quite a few).
Hagen doesn't look so much like Ricky now he's taken the glasses off.
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #8 on: 00:09:23, 18-03-2007 » |
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Can't take to the way Hagen does this scene (one of the most incredible in the whole opera, certainly one of the darkest) - I see his utterances as more eerie, distant, chilling, in contrast to the feverish Alberich. For those of you who might be interested, Hagen's 'Der ewige Macht, wer erbte sie?' is a fundamental motif that appears at various points in Finnissy's The History of Photography in Sound.
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« Last Edit: 14:19:53, 18-03-2007 by Ian Pace »
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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Tony Watson
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« Reply #9 on: 00:10:15, 18-03-2007 » |
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The way I got into the Ring was to listen to orchestral highlights, then operatic highlights, then follow the words to the whole thing. I don't care so much for any supposed philosophy and psychology behind it all. Wagner survives, I think, because of his music, rather than any ideology.
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #10 on: 00:11:16, 18-03-2007 » |
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Does anyone think that any of Shaw's socialistic interpretation of the Ring still holds up at all?
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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richard barrett
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« Reply #11 on: 00:18:43, 18-03-2007 » |
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Wagner survives, I think, because of his music, rather than any ideology. Which is exactly the point Magee makes, although I think it always halps understanding of a musical work (and especially when it's as complex as Wagner's are) by knowing something of its background, just as it's helpful to know something about Luther's theology if you want to understand Bach's church music and why it's the way it is. Magee's book is motivated by an involvement in the music first and foremost, though it also explains the philosohy of Schopenhauer in a more concise and memorable way than anything else I've read on the subject. I can assure you, Tony, that if you could be bothered to read it your appreciation of Wagner would be increased. |
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #12 on: 00:23:20, 18-03-2007 » |
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I would also strongly recommend the following (the Dahlhaus book on the left - it's a while since I looked at it, and don't own a copy, but remember it being extraordinary in its insights):  |
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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Tony Watson
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« Reply #13 on: 00:26:39, 18-03-2007 » |
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Richard,
I've got the book "Aspects of Wagner" by Bryan Magee on my shelves (OUP). It's about 15 years since I read it so I'm a bit rusty there (I see it first appeared in 1968). Is it similar to "Wagner and Philosohpy?"
As for George Bernard Shaw, how much of his music criticism holds these days?
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richard barrett
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« Reply #14 on: 00:34:33, 18-03-2007 » |
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I should add that Bryan Magee's book is written for a completely nonspecialist audience in a style that's a pleasure in itself to read. I don't know that Dahlhaus book, Ian, i'm sure it's worth a closer look.
I'm not sure at all about this production that's on the TV now. It looks a bit too much like a fashion show.
I found the "Aspects of Wagner" book a little too brief to deal with its subjects in as much depth ad I'd have wanted, but for me the "W and Philosophy" book was nothing less than gripping almost until the end (the final chapters, on the subject of Nietzsche, seemed much less interesting to me).
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