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Author Topic: Wagner - let's talk about...  (Read 2335 times)
tonybob
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vrooooooooooooooom


« Reply #60 on: 22:28:52, 19-03-2007 »

I'll take this:



Ah.

edible weaponry.

nice.
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sososo s & i.
offbeat
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Posts: 270



« Reply #61 on: 23:13:47, 19-03-2007 »

To Richard Barrett
I'm always aware when listening to the Ring that understanding the musical background to the singing is the most important factor - in fact for me more important than the singing - not sure im expressing myself too well but all i can say love lots of the operas (my very favourite being the last act of Siegfried) - like you say i think if you get into the rhythm of the drama you forget about everything else and just wallow in the action
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roslynmuse
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« Reply #62 on: 23:45:41, 19-03-2007 »

Interesting, Richard, that you say Rheingold comes closest to realising Wagner's concept of music-drama; without necessarily disagreeing with that, and certainly without denying some of the breath-taking originality of the score, I also think that in many ways the language itself (as against the formalisation of the structure that someone mentioned in connection with Gotterdammerung) still looks back to earlier grand opera models (Meyerbeer particularly - and there is some irony there!!!) more than any of the other parts of the Ring. I guess what I'm saying is that it is another example of how language and style do not have to be totally reinvented in order to create something which, in the broad sweep of musical history, is going to be of lasting importance and significance.
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #63 on: 23:54:54, 19-03-2007 »

I also think that in many ways the language itself (as against the formalisation of the structure that someone mentioned in connection with Gotterdammerung) still looks back to earlier grand opera models (Meyerbeer particularly - and there is some irony there!!!) more than any of the other parts of the Ring.

Well, the Meyerbeer influence behind Rienzi seems pretty obvious to me (though it's a while since I heard it - not exactly Wagner at his best!), and those elements in the forging of his musical language didn't disappear entirely. But I'm not sure I know exactly how they manifest themselves in Rheingold - interested to know your more detailed thoughts on that?
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
richard barrett
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« Reply #64 on: 14:50:07, 21-03-2007 »

Interesting, Richard, that you say Rheingold comes closest to realising Wagner's concept of music-drama; without necessarily disagreeing with that, and certainly without denying some of the breath-taking originality of the score, I also think that in many ways the language itself (as against the formalisation of the structure that someone mentioned in connection with Gotterdammerung) still looks back to earlier grand opera models (Meyerbeer particularly - and there is some irony there!!!) more than any of the other parts of the Ring. I guess what I'm saying is that it is another example of how language and style do not have to be totally reinvented in order to create something which, in the broad sweep of musical history, is going to be of lasting importance and significance.
The harmonic "language" of Rheingold is certainly not as convoluted as that in its successors; what I meant, though, was that it's the only one which wholly embodies the precepts stated by Wagner in his essay "Oper und Drama" (I think that's what it's called), written shortly before the music of Rheingold, which is accordingly "naturalistic" in its lack of end-rhymes in the libretto, closed forms or ensembles in the score, and so on, although Loge's monologue has always seems suspiciously like an aria to me.
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tonybob
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vrooooooooooooooom


« Reply #65 on: 19:24:44, 21-03-2007 »

...its lack of ... ensembles in the score, and so on, although Loge's monologue has always seems suspiciously like an aria to me.

quite right, but the Rhinemaidens are an ensemble; an isolated instance in Rheingold, certainly...
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sososo s & i.
tonybob
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vrooooooooooooooom


« Reply #66 on: 19:41:17, 21-03-2007 »

...its lack of ... ensembles in the score, and so on, although Loge's monologue has always seems suspiciously like an aria to me.

quite right, but the Rhinemaidens are an ensemble; an isolated instance in Rheingold, certainly...
Hardly an 'isolated instance', tonybob: much of the first scene, as well as reappearing at the end.


who rattled your cage?  Wink

...ahem...finished yet...?
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sososo s & i.
richard barrett
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« Reply #67 on: 19:42:40, 21-03-2007 »

I think one of the main points of Wagner's ban on ensembles was that they take too much emphasis off the words and make them unintelligible, and indeed the maidens sing mostly in turn, and when they sing together it's for a very short duration or without words.
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tonybob
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vrooooooooooooooom


« Reply #68 on: 19:55:33, 21-03-2007 »

nonsense words include:

Wallala! Lalaleia! Leialalei!
Heia! Heia! Haha!
Schäme dich, Albe!
Schilt nicht dort unten!
Höre, was wir dich heissen!
Warum, du Banger,
bandest du nicht
das Mädchen, das du minnst?
Treu sind wir
und ohne Trug
dem Freier, der uns fängt.
Greife nur zu,
und grause dich nicht!
In der Flut entflieh'n wir nicht leicht!
Wallala! Lalaleia! Leialalei!
Heia! Heia! Hahei!
     *****     
Heiajaheia!
Heiajaheia!
Wallalalalala leiajahei!
Rheingold!
Rheingold!
Leuchtende Lust,
wie lachst du so hell und hehr!
Glühender Glanz
entgleisset dir weihlich im Wag!
Heiajahei!
Heiajaheia!
Wache, Freund,
Wache froh!
Wonnige Spiele
spenden wir dir:
flimmert der Fluss,
flammet die Flut,
umfliessen wir tauchend,
tanzend und singend
im seligem Bade dein Bett!
Rheingold!
Rheingold!
Heiajaheia!
Wallalalalala heiajahei!

     *****
Rheingold! Rheingold!
Reines Gold!
O leuchtete noch
in der Tiefe dein laut'rer Tand!
Traulich und treu
ist's nur in der Tiefe:
falsch und feig
ist, was dort oben sich freut!

     *****     

probably more than Froh, Donner and Freia put together, mind, and the words *are* important.
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sososo s & i.
reiner_torheit
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« Reply #69 on: 20:04:49, 21-03-2007 »

I am not sure that Wagner was opposed to ensemble singing if it was homophonic, or mostly homophonic, in nature.  His frequent citations and support-appeals to Greek Tragedy (which Nietszche expanded upon, of course) suggest that he has something of what he fondly imagined a "Greek Chorus" to have been in mind?

The next question, then, is why he threw most of these principles in the bin by the end of the Ring - many of them by the end of WALKURE?  And by the other end of this career, he is cheerfully writing the Flowermaiden scene in Parsifal where you really can't hear the words because of the way they've been set.
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They say travel broadens the mind - but in many cases travel has made the mind not exactly broader, but thicker.
richard barrett
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« Reply #70 on: 20:16:07, 21-03-2007 »

Thank you, Reiner, that's what I was trying to say. As to why this "new" way of doing things gradually gave way to something else, as we've said before here this must have something to do with the way the "Ring" libretto was (broadly speaking) written in the opposite order to the music, but that doesn't really answer the question - maybe it's something as simple as Wagner's composerly sensibilities getting the better of him as he started examining the implications of the leitmotiv technique, leading eventually to the "discovery" that the orchestra has so many more affective dimensions than the voices that what they sing doesn't have to be as upfront as he thought when writing his essay and then Rheingold.
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Tony Watson
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« Reply #71 on: 20:21:16, 21-03-2007 »

Loge's monologue has always seems suspiciously like an aria to me.

Quite so. Apparently, during the very first performance, the audience applauded at the end of it; the only time applause interrupted the opera.
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martle
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« Reply #72 on: 22:28:28, 21-03-2007 »

Wagner's ban on ensembles

I think it was more strategic than a 'ban', at least as far as The Ring is concerned. And even more so if you expand that idea outwards to include 'choruses', however defined. The Valkuries' 'ride', and even better, the hymn of praise to Hagen in Gotterdammerung by his soldiers ('Hagen, the Grim One!') are both exquisitely calculated ensembles in their respective dramatic contexts, all the more telling because of the relative paucity of such instances elsewhere.
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Green. Always green.
reiner_torheit
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« Reply #73 on: 23:27:55, 21-03-2007 »

Quote
examining the implications of the leitmotiv technique, leading eventually to the "discovery" that the orchestra has so many more affective dimensions than the voices that what they sing doesn't have to be as upfront as he thought when writing his essay and then Rheingold

Now here's a question...  do you think the characters "hear" the orchestral leitmotivs, or are they only for us to hear?  For example, when the Wanderer is playing twenty questions with Mime in SIEGFRIED Act I, he asks a question about the Volsungs, and the "Walse" theme is clearly heard in the orchestra... but Mime still can't get the answer right, even with this outrageous "clue". 
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They say travel broadens the mind - but in many cases travel has made the mind not exactly broader, but thicker.
Tony Watson
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« Reply #74 on: 23:38:17, 21-03-2007 »

Now here's a question...  do you think the characters "hear" the orchestral leitmotivs, or are they only for us to hear?  For example, when the Wanderer is playing twenty questions with Mime in SIEGFRIED Act I, he asks a question about the Volsungs, and the "Walse" theme is clearly heard in the orchestra... but Mime still can't get the answer right, even with this outrageous "clue".

Perhaps it's a stage whisper but this exposes a limitation of Wagner's scheme. Imagine you're Siegfried and everywhere you go your associated themes are played. It would drive you nuts and the people you visit.
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