There has always been a back-to-nature strand in what one might call Fascist thought - an idea that nature represents a purity that existed in a primeval state of primeval bliss, from which society has degenerated over time.  There's an element of the superman in some of the concepts of medieval literature - the hero as the man who excelled in everything, from courtly manners and song to prowess in the hunt and on the battlefield.  It's a very easy trap to fall into for any political movement with an environmental outlook - one can almost become uneasy at times when reading News from Nowhere,  with its future world peopled by physically perfect specimens (in contrast to not just the squalor of industrial society, but to the sickliness and the endless spa treatments that defined Morris' own deeply unhappy marriage).

I think the answer, for Morris and the modern Green Left (of which I certainly count myself a supporter), and implicit in the Ring, is that Green politics today is really about people relating to one another in a non-exploitative way, and the idea that respect for the environment is very much of a piece with respect for other individuals and traditions.  (It's also based on a growing awareness of the scientific realities of how we have lived, but that's another story).  The green fascist view (for want of a better world) wishes away conflict, priorities and individuals in favour of a monistic vision of natural harmony, which seems to me to be the purest fantasy, ignoring the messy reality of human experience.

I appreciate that all of this is miles off-topic .....

And once again Godwin's Law rears its ugly head.

I wonder if there's a musical version of it which predicts the length of time a thread on Wagner can last before the N-word appears? 

It might be pointed out that the stuff about medievalism, agrarianism and fascism was a tangent on the thread that I raised because I reckoned these were subjects operacat would know plenty about! Not strictly to do with Wagner, though of course it's hardly difficult to see some links.

But is it surprising, or a bad thing, to look at elements of proto-Nazi ideology in Wagner's work? Hardly as if the subject hasn't preoccupied an awful lot of people. And maybe more interesting or productive to examine to what degree these things might be embedded in the works themselves, rather than merely in terms of Wagner's writings and political views? Richard Evans points out that there's no evidence that Hitler ever read any of Wagner's writings; his inspiration came from the works themselves. Though (I may have mentioned this before), according to Hitler's valet Heinz Linge and the cook at his military headquarters, Marlene Exener, after the defeat at Stalingrad, Hitler could no longer listen to Wagner (or Bruckner) and reconciled himself with operettas, especially Lehár's's Die lustige Witwe. Some have suggested that Hitler had begun to foresee his own Götterdämmerung, and that he had paid too little attention to the fact that Wagner's valiant heroes usually arrive at a tragic fate.

Many many thanks (I'm interested in this in the context of the most more urban-oriented Italian fascism, as well).


Yes, unfortunately, this ISN'T a joke...there ARE elements of Blut und Boden in Green politics....the idea was that the racially pure German peasant (read...'village idiot' ) was somehow morally superior to the urban sophisticate, , 'Kulturbolschewisten', JEWS, who had no link to the SOIL of the Fatherland. Nazism (Fascism to a lesser extent) was a very ANTI-INTELLECTUAL movement - Jews=intellectuals=corruptors of youth.....


Well, Deep Ecology comes close.....as I said, this is WHY we founded GREEN LEFT.

Come on operacat - take this in the spirit it was intended 'We' might have discussed it elsewhere, but others might not have, nor have seen this... And just because Wagner knew a lot about women's clothing doesn't mean that he might not have been a cross-dresser   

May be Wagner wasnot a cross dresser. May be he wanted to have a rob (like a bathroom rob, but fancy) to be at home in. He did like theatrical costumes and that beret that he is wearing is unusual.
On the other hand he could be a cross dresser which makes it even more interesting.

I am late comer to Wagner's music (being pianist and was not exposed to Wagner in my youth). But I finally caught up on his music and beginning to admire and enjoy it a lot. They are not operas, but symphonic poems with singers, costumes and decorations. Orchestra describes a lot of emotions and what is happening to the heroes even more that singers themselves. I don't like what I hear about Wagner the man, but he is a genius. Liszt was good to separate people from talent, he knew how to forgive people and accept them for what they are (imperfect beings).

Gentlemen, choose your weapons: