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richard barrett
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« Reply #30 on: 10:48:54, 29-04-2007 » |
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I'm not sure how you can make yourself think as little as possible. Surely you're putting a lot of cognititve effort already in getting yourself to that state?
I think this is strongly related to the fact that, in performing improvised music, a great deal of preparation is required in order to achieve a state where spontaneity becomes possible. "Switching off" is, though, strongly encouraged by much music and the circumstances in which it's typically heard, though this isn't to say that a more "enlightened" listener might not have a different response - most people don't have the time, motivation and encouragement to listen to music in any way other than passively (and, of course, with music education going in the direction it is, this majority is bound to get even larger). |
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #31 on: 11:05:49, 29-04-2007 » |
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I'm not sure how you can make yourself think as little as possible. Surely you're putting a lot of cognititve effort already in getting yourself to that state?
I think this is strongly related to the fact that, in performing improvised music, a great deal of preparation is required in order to achieve a state where spontaneity becomes possible. Absolutely - the same is true, I would say, in the very conscious preparation that is entailed so as to enable spontaneous interpretation of 'composed' music. With respect to Daniel's points, I think we're simply debating semantics here - maybe this is more about attaining a simple state of open-mindedness rather than unthinkingness? Music to 'switch off' to tends to consist of relatively simple, easily taken-in experiences that accord with what one already knows, rather than presenting new forms of consciousness that require conscious apprehension. I particularly take issue with the notion that Morton Feldman's music is 'chill-out', quasi-New Agey stuff, though it can be played in such a manner. For me, at best, this music demands a high degree of attention to the finest details and is in no sense aural wallpaper. The experiences it provides are every bit as complex, intricate, and deeply subjective as those provided by music with a more obvious degree of diversity in terms of surface material. |
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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xyzzzz__
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« Reply #32 on: 11:10:44, 29-04-2007 » |
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Well, I don't know about "most people", and I suppose there is a lot of music marketed precisely to switch off to, but I think there are responses that feels as if it engages with elements of whatever is listened to and isn't only analytical or merely passive (this might be an 'enlightened' response).
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richard barrett
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« Reply #33 on: 11:14:11, 29-04-2007 » |
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Well, I don't know about "most people", and I suppose there is a lot of music marketed precisely to switch off to, but I think there are responses that feels as if it engages with elements of whatever is listened to and isn't only analytical or merely passive (this might be an 'enlightened' response).
It is indeed. Most people, once more, wouldn't be in a position to formulate a sentence like that. |
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #34 on: 11:16:37, 29-04-2007 » |
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Well, I don't know about "most people", and I suppose there is a lot of music marketed precisely to switch off to, but I think there are responses that feels as if it engages with elements of whatever is listened to and isn't only analytical or merely passive (this might be an 'enlightened' response).
It is indeed. Most people, once more, wouldn't be in a position to formulate a sentence like that. They may not be able to verbally formulate and articulate it, but they might still experience those types of responses. |
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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Tony Watson
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« Reply #35 on: 11:25:19, 29-04-2007 » |
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I would question whether having one's emotions manipulated is a bad thing. I don't want King Lear to die and so my feelings are taken in a direction I didn't want to go. That doesn't make it a worse play. On the other hand, I don't like the happy ending that Prokofiev felt he had to tag on to the end of his seventh symphony, so perhaps that's an example of bad emotional manipulation.
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richard barrett
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« Reply #36 on: 11:33:08, 29-04-2007 » |
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I would question whether having one's emotions manipulated is a bad thing. I don't want King Lear to die and so my feelings are taken in a direction I didn't want to go. That doesn't make it a worse play. On the other hand, I don't like the happy ending that Prokofiev felt he had to tag on to the end of his seventh symphony, so perhaps that's an example of bad emotional manipulation.
On the other hand, assuming you go into King Lear knowing something about the play, probably having seen or read it, you KNOW he's going to die, and on another level you KNOW you're watching actors on a stage. I'm rather doubtful about extrapolating to musical situations from something like that. For example: you assume that the ending of Prokofiev's Seventh is supposed to represent a "happy ending", but you don't know that in the way that you know Lear is doomed from the moment he divides his kingdom. (I'll have to go off and listen to the Prokofiev now...) |
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #37 on: 11:52:18, 29-04-2007 » |
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In the film Stalingrad (WARNING: Plot spoiler follows here!) the remaining soldiers at the end are attempting to retreat to safety, but end up dying from the freezing cold, suicide, and so on. Some of the producers and backers wanted this ending changed, so that some would survive, giving a happy ending that would produce more favourable reactions from American audiences in particular (just as Schindler's List did well because it has a happy, uplifting ending). The ending as it (thankfully) stands is horribly bleak, but anyone with a smidgeon of knowledge about the events in question would know that is much more representative of what actually happened than a tacked-on happy ending would be. The film purports to represent real events (it would not have the same kudos if it were an entirely fictionalised story) and as such I believe has a certain responsibility to the truth. The happy ending proposed would have been manipulation, whereas the actual ending, however harrowing it is, doesn't fall into that category because it forces the audience to consider the very reality of the events. One might say that the alternative ending might have made them think about the 'triumph of humanity over adversity' (which, to my mind, to invoke in that particular context is nothing short of crass), but this would be so palpably false as to definitely fall into the category of artificial manipulation, I reckon. Obviously things are rather more complex in the context of instrumental music, which doesn't obviously refer to 'real' events, but I still believe some distinction between what seems 'real' and what seems artificially contrived for easy effect is an important one to maintain.
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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richard barrett
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« Reply #38 on: 11:57:05, 29-04-2007 » |
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They may not be able to verbally formulate and articulate it, but they might still experience those types of responses.
Probably "we" would be better than "they" in that sentence! |
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #39 on: 12:29:51, 29-04-2007 » |
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For example: you assume that the ending of Prokofiev's Seventh is supposed to represent a "happy ending" Hm, perhaps a bad example in that there are two endings for Prokofiev 7 in circulation...  |
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #40 on: 12:30:27, 29-04-2007 » |
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They may not be able to verbally formulate and articulate it, but they might still experience those types of responses.
Probably "we" would be better than "they" in that sentence! Well, the context was the use by another of 'most people'. 'One' might be best (for all its associations with class, it would be nice if such a term could attain the status of the French On)? |
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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marbleflugel
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« Reply #41 on: 12:51:32, 29-04-2007 » |
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This business of 'letting go', 'letting the music flow over you' and the current coinage of 'chillout' and 'new-age'
are I think more subtle than they might seem. While there is an unhealthy commercial spin placed on them,
isnt the long-range provenance about ancient forms of ritual recast? I think its also an issue of figure/ ground
(ie subject:environment) in that the concert experience can be uncomfortable to get to and be in physically. Great
institution that it is,the Huddersfield Festival for example takes place in an Arctic ambience for which I assume cladding is available to the insiders. Similarly The RFH and Barbican pre-refurbishments.
This is not to say that that can't be transcended by the right kind of attention, which can be facilitated deftly. Its interesting, nominally purely as a matter of branding , to see 'chillout' be applied to the folk scene specifically through the record l;abel distributor Big Chill, which includes some thoroughgoing classical syndication)which has always had a strong tradition of instrumental sophistication and subtle challenge to the listener. Lurking around this is Richard's pertinent observation that '...Most people' (and that's a lot of people) have'nt much time to listen
attentively(forgive my inadequate paraphrase). This seems to imply that given the right resourcing more could, and I think this is a neglected area of opportunity. (I will not at this point plug my next gig)
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'...A celebrity is someone who didn't get the attention they needed as an adult'
Arnold Brown
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Daniel
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« Reply #42 on: 12:53:15, 29-04-2007 » |
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I suppose what I mean when I say trying to listen to music without thinking is that I try to put myself in a state which allows it to happen. George put it so well (as he so often seems to!) as putting aside the 'muddy mediator'. I do think that my mediator might be particularly muddy.
But I don't know if it is that rare. Don't many people when for example they see a sunset quite wordlessly (and unthinkingly?) have an extremely profound, meaningful and complex/simple experience based on all sorts of instincts, reactions and previous experiences? I know the sunset has not been 'composed' by another person (perhaps I should have said a wonderful painting of a sunset), but yet if I am analysing my experience of it as I am having it, then it will detract from the fullness of the experience for me, my openness to it involves a kind of muteness somewhere in my intellect. And I repeat this is not a vague 'washing over' experience, if anything the detail is intensified. The more articulate thoughts that I might need, say to describe the experience or the forms and colours I saw in it, would come afterwards.
I don't think I am new-agey, I don't really know. I am just trying to have the most connected experience with music that is possible for me with the way I am set up. And I am certainly not some sort of spiritually advanced hotshot, I hope I wasn't coming across like that. I am an idiot who is trying to make the best of a bad job, and trying to be less like an idiot (not said in a self-flagellatory way, it's just the way I see things).
I'd also like to repeat two things. First I don't listen to music like this (or attempt to) all the time. Apart from anything else I am not capable.
Second, I value very highly indeed the analytical wisdom shared by people on this board, it is a great treasure, and I do not find it 'dry' or 'academic' in the least. Indeed I often find it exciting and it helps further my understanding of music which feeds into my experience of it and I am very grateful for it.
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #43 on: 12:57:47, 29-04-2007 » |
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Don't many people when for example they see a sunset quite wordlessly (and unthinkingly?) have an extremely profound, meaningful and complex/simple experience based on all sorts of instincts, reactions and previous experiences? Certainly, but isn't that a highly subjective and individuated 'engagement' with the sunset, what I might call a form of 'engaged subjectivity', in which one brings one's subjective experiences and perceptions into a dialogue with an external phenomenon? |
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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Daniel
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« Reply #44 on: 13:07:08, 29-04-2007 » |
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Certainly, but isn't that a highly subjective and individuated 'engagement' with the sunset, what I might call a form of 'engaged subjectivity', in which one brings one's subjective experiences and perceptions into a dialogue with an external phenomenon?
Yes. |
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