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Author Topic: Now spinning  (Read 89672 times)
oliver sudden
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« Reply #1665 on: 22:06:40, 25-10-2007 »

The disc isn't actually spinning at the moment but having heard it my head certainly is:

Bach WTC I. Richard Egarr on Harmonia Mundi. In the temperament postulated by Bradley Lehman:

http://www-personal.umich.edu/~bpl/larips/usage.html

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opilec
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« Reply #1666 on: 22:42:54, 25-10-2007 »

The disc isn't actually spinning at the moment but having heard it my head certainly is:

Bach WTC I. Richard Egarr on Harmonia Mundi. In the temperament postulated by Bradley Lehman:

http://www-personal.umich.edu/~bpl/larips/usage.html



Ollie, that's on my current wish list. In fact, thanks for the reminder: must pre-order from hmv while it's cheap!

And the verdict is ... ?
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strinasacchi
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« Reply #1667 on: 12:08:35, 26-10-2007 »

Ollie, I'd be curious what you think of this CD too.

I absolutely love Lehman's temperament.  I can't comment on the historical justifications for it, but I think it sounds amazing.

ps Why are you back down to one star? Doesn't look right with your 3000+ posts and new moderator status!
« Last Edit: 12:22:48, 26-10-2007 by strinasacchi » Logged
oliver sudden
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« Reply #1668 on: 16:52:08, 26-10-2007 »

My verdict: it blows my mind.

I've read Lehman's arguments for seeing the squiggle I posted above as a diagram of the temperament (it's a shame they're not in the booklet notes) - anyone who's interested should read them, and to my mind everyone interested in classical music should be interested. I find them pretty convincing even just as detective work - it is really the only evidence we have for one temperament as opposed to another and I think the onus is on anyone who would propose a different temperament to find something as convincing for that. (Wohltemperiert then as now doesn't mean equal-tempered, which was and is gleichtemperiert.)

And musically speaking: yes. It makes perfect sense; the tanginess of the more distant keys seems perfectly appropriate. The way the C# major prelude constantly avoids sounding the harmonies together while the C major has wallowed in them (and the progressions in the middle sound marvellous; the dissonances are all slightly different in flavour). (Yes, I know he originally wrote the C# major prelude in C major. I don't think that matters since the point is that the avoidance of chords makes it so appropriate for the new context; it doesn't mean the piece wouldn't work in C of course, just that it's a great display of how to make the dissonant key work.) The C# minor fugue subject sounds so marvellously bitter. The way the keys aren't arranged in 5ths but in semitones means the flavours are changing kaleiodoscopically rather than progressing gradually so the juxtapositions are far more striking - I'm looking forward to playing it on shuffle when I get a free couple of hours.

I think it's an absolutely essential recording. You won't hear the piece the same way afterwards; if your ears have anything in common with mine it will change the way you think of tuning and temperament across the board. I find equal temperament quite hard to cope with in this repertoire nowadays.

It's really well played too. Smiley

Oh, re my stars: I don't know either, I still have to work a few things out. Maybe I get to climb the ladder again now, which would actually be nice.
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Ena
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« Reply #1669 on: 17:45:16, 26-10-2007 »

The disc isn't actually spinning at the moment but having heard it my head certainly is:

Bach WTC I. Richard Egarr on Harmonia Mundi. In the temperament postulated by Bradley Lehman:

http://www-personal.umich.edu/~bpl/larips/usage.html



Ollie, that's on my current wish list. In fact, thanks for the reminder: must pre-order from hmv while it's cheap!

And the verdict is ... ?

There's nowt so queer...! Lehman says 1/4-comma meantone while Bach says "Well Tempered". Seems clear to me - a simple northern lassie aged 98 - that if thou wants to hear "Well tempered" tuning (a bit like my harmonium really) you need to hear Leonhardt's efforts. Is't not clear that Well Temperament is blummin well different from 1/4-comma meantone (or any other blummin' meantone)?

Now cummon folks, let's show some common sense!
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #1670 on: 21:58:09, 26-10-2007 »

Is't not clear that Well Temperament is blummin well different from 1/4-comma meantone (or any other blummin' meantone)?

Er, from that very article:

"There are many well temperament schemes, some nearer meantone temperament, others nearer equal temperament."

Lehman isn't the only one to have had a go at it, I see, even though his efforts have been much more successful at making it into the 'mainstream'. Here's some further reading, for any interested parties:

http://bach.tuning.googlepages.com/home

I'm in no position to comment on the relative merits of the various theories though. There might well be quite a few possible tuning systems that make a similar kind of audible sense. For me the revelatory nature of it all is partly just that this is the first time that that sense has been made audible to me - I don't know of another recording that's had wide circulation where the resources of a 'well-tempered' as opposed to an 'equal-tempered' system have been explored. For obvious reasons a well-tempered system is going to have a kind of logic stretching across the entire work that an equal-tempered system can't.
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Ena
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« Reply #1671 on: 22:56:55, 26-10-2007 »


"There are many well temperament schemes, some nearer meantone temperament, others nearer equal temperament."


You must be THE "Ollie"! Cor. I'll watch my p's and q's then.

There may well be many schemes, but those venturing "nearer to meantone" or "nearer equal temperament" cannot be truly well-tempered schemes - but merely "compromises". Meantone schemes place consonant emphases on the imperfect consonances (3rds, 6ths) and leave howling "wolf" pitches (thereby limiting key-transferability, and modulation). Equal Temperament only recognizes the perfection of the octave (all other intervals remaining impure) - in particular the major 3rds and 6ths which are too wide, and the minor 3rds and 6ths which are too narrow. In the latter scheme, all fifths are too small, and all fourths too wide.

Equal temperament was never ever used in music before the 20th century - except (from the 1500s) upon fretted instruments. This was because it became impossible to retain the differing major and minor semitones required in Pythagorean and Ptolemaic tunings when using differing strings with common frets (i.e. that crossed each string at the same finger board positions). As a result keyboard instruments (excepting unusual ones such as Vicentino's archicembalo) remained faithful to meantone tuning.

But Well Temperament, while retaining inequality of semitones and adjustments away from perfection regarding fifths and fourths, was quite different from Meantone. It enabled performance in all 24 keys, but in a way that gave each of them its own "affect" or "colour" - since the semitone inequality was spread differently for each one. There were no "wolf" intervals at all, and Bach's Eb Minor pair from WTC Book 1 proves that Eb minor=D# minor (since the prelude has 6 flats, but the fugue 6 sharps - there being no technical distinction). No meantone system would ever have allowed performance in a key like D# minor - let alone then propose that it is identical with Eb minor!

I've read the article you point us to - and many others as well. They're all interesting and valuable. They help us to listen to, and understand, this music in a new and very different way.

So please put that in't pipe and smoke the blummin' thing.
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #1672 on: 23:24:44, 26-10-2007 »



 Smiley

No argument with any of that from me. I was only wondering about your 'Lehman says 1/4-comma meantone' bit, though. Does he really say that in reference to his theories on Bach's temperament? That doesn't quite tally with what I've read...

This is very fine though (from www.larips.com). It does rather outline Lehman's practical emphasis.

Quote
This tuning method is based on straightforward principles (among the additional historical material as presented in the Oxford paper):

    * Axiomatically (& historically), no major 3rd should be smaller than C:E. Some others might be similar or the same, but none smaller.
    * Axiomatically (& historically), at least the natural 5ths from C-G-D-A-E should all be of consistent size geometrically...i.e. from the core of "regular" (aka meantone) tempering practice, with ordinaire types of adjustments outside that core. With those regular 5ths, what's good for violins/violas/cellos/violas da gamba on the open strings is good for music: gentle and consistent tempering of the naturals. (And Bach himself was a string player; what might he do as normal practice on those instruments?)
    * Axiomatically (& historically), the C major scale is the natural center of harmony, and the one that should be most regular melodically...again from meantone practice.
    * Axiomatically (& historically), there cannot be any noticeably bad 5ths/4ths anywhere; all major and minor triads have to be usable.
    * Axiomatically (& historically), if the major 3rds in a temperament are changing sizes, it has to be gradual and sound steady when we modulate normally around the circle of 5ths. The easiest test is to play major triads all the way around in both directions, like dominant or subdominant progressions. No major 3rd should be grossly different from the ones immediately on either side of it, in root motions by 5ths.
    * Premise: the whole WTC is playable (and to be played) in a single temperament without stopping to retune any notes between pieces. A good solution makes everything playable and sufficiently interesting as well. On fretted clavichords and organs, retempering between pieces is out of the question anyway.
    * Practical observation (from experimentation and from historical models): it works well to have E:G# smaller than or equal to Ab:C, not vice versa, because Ab is closer to C than G# is (C-F-Bb-Eb-Ab, vs C-G-D-A-E-B-F#-C#-G#). The closer we are to the home key of C major, the less tempered out of regularity we should be.
    * Practical observation: it works well to have F to Bb slightly wider than a pure 5th (as in Italian/French ordinaire practice), yielding a decent major 3rd on F#:A#; the cost to Bb situations is much less than the gain in A# situations, both melodically and in dominant harmonies.
    * Practical observation: the major 3rd C#:E# must be rather good, as Bach audaciously started the C# major prelude with an open exposed occurrence; likewise plenty of G#:B#. Also on the subject of Db:F, this interval is very important to music in the frequently used keys of C minor, F minor, and Eb major, among others; it just doesn't do to have this interval be nasty or obtrusive. Music (such as Bach's F minor prelude/fugue of WTC 1, or the Eb major or the Bb minor p/f, or the much later F major Duetto BWV 803) develops suddenly intrusive bumpiness on the occurrences of Ab:C and Db:F, in temperaments like Werckmeister 3 where those major 3rds are the widest.
    * Practical observation: the major 3rd B:D# must also be very good, for straightforward use in E minor and A minor.
    * Practical observation: if an organ is tempered with the WTC's temperament (in at least one or more accompanimental ranks, if not the whole instrument), it also has to handle the Chorton/Cammerton transposing continuo parts for the compositions that were written that way, playing the continuo in its originally notated keys; and this affects the overall sound of the ensemble.
    * Premise: Bach was clever enough (and musically enterprising enough) to have understood all this and made full use of it before writing his music, treating temperament issues as a musical virtue rather than an unwelcome liability. The tuning style perhaps affected his creative imagination, symbiotically, as to the types of themes and harmonic adventures that made their way into his music; and they only pop back out most clearly if we can re-create the same or similar tuning balance to hear those effects directly. Set up the same conditions he likely had at home or in his office, during the compositional process, to hear how its sound can influence improvisation and composition.
    * Practical observation: the best way to test all this is to play the music directly. The compositions themselves tell us more than any paper argumentation does, in their sound.
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Andy D
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« Reply #1673 on: 23:34:22, 26-10-2007 »

This statement is false  Grin
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Ena
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« Reply #1674 on: 23:53:52, 26-10-2007 »

I'll examine some of the points in message #1672 tomorrow (after a good night's kip).
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #1675 on: 09:29:20, 27-10-2007 »

Looking forward to it! There's a new thread here that would be ideal Smiley

http://r3ok.myforum365.com/index.php?topic=2086
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opilec
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« Reply #1676 on: 12:23:24, 27-10-2007 »



Smiley
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Bryn
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« Reply #1677 on: 19:11:53, 27-10-2007 »

The disc isn't actually spinning at the moment but having heard it my head certainly is:

Bach WTC I. Richard Egarr on Harmonia Mundi. In the temperament postulated by Bradley Lehman:

http://www-personal.umich.edu/~bpl/larips/usage.html



Ollie, that's on my current wish list. In fact, thanks for the reminder: must pre-order from hmv while it's cheap!

And the verdict is ... ?

At £14.99, HMV does indeed look like the best bet at the moment. Having heard the extracts on CD Review this morning, I have ordered it. The tuning is almost an incidental matter with playing like that.
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Stanley Stewart
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Well...it was 1935


« Reply #1678 on: 19:40:08, 27-10-2007 »

  Newly arrived, this morning, and about to be played:

 DVD          Mahler  Symphony No 6

 Lucerne Festival Orchestra: Claudio Abbado

A warm tingle before it even starts.
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opilec
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« Reply #1679 on: 19:41:38, 27-10-2007 »

A warm tingle before it even starts.

That'll be the cow-bells being set up.  Wink
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