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Author Topic: Now spinning  (Read 89672 times)
oliver sudden
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« Reply #3420 on: 17:13:14, 31-08-2008 »

Not actually now spinning but it was yesterday and a certain percentage of it will be burbling out of my clarinet in a few hours from now: Lachenmann, Mouvement.

I have completely gone off this piece. What crepe timing.
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richard barrett
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« Reply #3421 on: 17:14:37, 31-08-2008 »

Not actually now spinning but it was yesterday and a certain percentage of it will be burbling out of my clarinet in a few hours from now: Lachenmann, Mouvement.

I have completely gone off this piece. What crepe timing.

Er, well, that's kind of the point innit? It's critical, you know.
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strinasacchi
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« Reply #3422 on: 17:15:35, 31-08-2008 »

Oh, can of worms...

First of all, a disclaimer: I don't really listen to recordings all that much (at least not of music that I play) and I'm not as familiar with historical historical recordings (if you will) as I probably ought to be.

That being said - I think you're absolutely right that wind/brass playing has improved enormously.  This probably goes hand in hand with improvements in understanding and making the instruments themselves, as well as improvements in "technique" and appropriate use of the instruments.

String playing - oh my what a fraught issue.  Certainly our understanding of the equipment has moved on a great deal.  Set-ups, gut strings and bows are very different now from in the '70s (even the '90s), and should be more capable of an interesting and wide range of colours than ever before (in the modern era).  I also think there is a greater depth of field, a larger and stronger general pool of players, now than before.

But that old stereotype of HIP players being ones who couldn't cut it as modern players still looms over the scene, and this sometimes manifests itself in self-loathing.  Some (not all) people who are currently held up as leaders or soloists, and hence who shape how groups sound, are considered "good" because they have (or have had) successful "modern" careers.  Some of these people are genuinely interesting musicians but (in my opinion) are not giving themselves a full chance to understand how to make the most of the early instruments.  Some of them I'm afraid are a bit more cynical, or stupid, and think they'll dazzle everyone if they stick on a couple of gut strings and play Veracini or whatever as fast as possible.  Unfortunately they're usually right, and people are happy to be dazzled.

This might be one reason why string sound might be becoming more homogenous, more bland, less interesting - even at the same time the instruments are becoming more capable of sounding deeper and more characterful, and there are more people devoting themselves to playing on these instruments as in-depth as possible.

Another reason why things may seem less interesting now is precisely because so many more people are doing it.  HIP has become another career choice with a standard path to follow - it's no longer the preserve of mavericks, eccentrics and obsessives.  There seem to be fewer strong personalities able to make a distinct mark on the sound.

Then again, I think string sound generally has got worse over the past few decades.  Yesterday I was listening to a recording of the Busch quartet playing Schubert and thinking how stunningly beautiful their sound was - supple and subtle, intense and focussed, never harsh, full of colour and expression.  I know I've gone on about this before, but I'll say it again: I don't think string players these days are being taught how to use the bow well.  I had a very old-fashioned teacher when I was young, and she always made me think about and use my right hand to a degree I don't see now.

I don't know if this fits in with your perception of how string sound has altered.  How would you describe what the 1970 group was like compared to more recent playing?
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #3423 on: 17:32:31, 31-08-2008 »

Yesterday I was listening to a recording of the Busch quartet playing Schubert and thinking how stunningly beautiful their sound was
That makes two of us! (Having previously listened to their Brahms quintet with Reginald Kell on Testament, which is another one of my Most Stunning Recordings Of Anything Ever.)

From my layperson's perspective I can but agree with you concerning bowing. I certainly subscribe to the notion that that infernal continuous wobbling of the left hand has in general poisoned the right. (I only feel I can say that because I do know a couple of exceptions to this rather sad tendency.)

Richard, I haven't gone off Mouvement because it's critical, I've gone off it because it sounds to me now like a couple of jolly knees-up percussion-propelled toccatas interspersed with funny noises, some glorified doorbells and a bit of clarinet spanking, in other words about as critical as a chocolate frog. I hasten to add that this does not apply to Zwei Gefühle, for example.
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richard barrett
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« Reply #3424 on: 17:40:34, 31-08-2008 »

Strina, here are some worms for your can:

Concentus musicus Wien in 1970 and
Musica Fiata in 2001

playing Schmelzer's six-part Sonata IV from Sacro-profanus concentus musicus.

I've gone off it because it sounds to me now like a couple of jolly knees-up percussion-propelled toccatas interspersed with funny noises, some glorified doorbells and a bit of clarinet spanking
Indeed.

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strinasacchi
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« Reply #3425 on: 17:43:01, 31-08-2008 »

... a couple of jolly knees-up percussion-propelled toccatas interspersed with funny noises, some glorified doorbells and a bit of clarinet spanking, in other words about as critical as a chocolate frog.

Sounds like fun!

Now Practising (in between looking in here): Ganassi's divisions. A bit early for a fiddler but kind of fun.  Not as much fun as spanking chocolate frogs though.
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richard barrett
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« Reply #3426 on: 17:57:42, 31-08-2008 »

Having failed once again to find anything to hold my interest in Sibelius 6, I continue my headlong rush to the end of the alphabet with Tchaikovsky 4, courtesy of the Leningrad Philharmonic conducted by Mravinsky. Apropos the aforementioned can of worms I think one would be hard put to find an orchestral string section to equal the precision and intensity of this one.
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strinasacchi
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« Reply #3427 on: 18:21:06, 31-08-2008 »

Strina, here are some worms for your can:

Concentus musicus Wien in 1970 and
Musica Fiata in 2001

playing Schmelzer's six-part Sonata IV from Sacro-profanus concentus musicus.


Hmm, very interesting.  Both performances have things I like and don't like, in ways that perhaps reflect their times.

The upper strings on the earlier recording are a touch wobbly, and don't seem to be aware of playing in any particular temperament (low Fs and high Es and Bs don't sit well in this repertoire I don't think).  Their bows every now and then get a bit skatey and uncontrolled (particularly noticeable in the swoopy ornament at the end of the first phrase and the opening of the next).  The bass line is a bit uncharacterised, but has a gorgeous full sound.  Everyone is playing with enormous gusto and verve and passion, and it's very direct and exciting despite my criticisms.

The later recording misses the support of the elaborate keyboard (although the sound of it in the earlier recording was a bit tinkly).  The bass line is much more characterised than the earlier one, taking the lead and shaping the phrases in a way the earlier player(s) didn't do.  The intonation/temperament is better.  I think the tone is more incisive and controlled, but it's hard to tell in the unflattering huge-bathroom acoustic.  But the upper strings seem to be much more concerned about good taste and proper playing than direct emotional appeal.  Maybe they're thinking of themselves as "mere" ornament on top of a strong bass line with lots of motion, but that's not as satisfying as the earlier recording.

Do you think this is fair comment?  What would you say you like or don't like about each?

(I'm not getting a lot of practising done am I? oh well, this kind of listening and thinking is important too.)
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richard barrett
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« Reply #3428 on: 18:33:47, 31-08-2008 »

I can only agree with your assessment, Strina, though I wouldn't be able to put it so succinctly.

In 1970 detailed issues of temperament presumably hadn't yet been tackled because there were more basic issues of technique through which players would have been feeling their way (I assume that it wouldn't have been possible to study "baroque violin" at conservatories in those days). The players in the later recording seem much more confident with their instruments and the material but, maybe as a result, they aren't applying their imagination to it to the same extent - the older ensemble seems to have grasped the hints of folk music in this piece (which becomes clearer later on in the piece, after this excerpt ends) and emphasised them, with the harpsichordist thinking of a cimbalom or whatever its forerunner was, in a way which is more in the literal sense "baroque". That's my two cents' worth anyway.
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Turfan Fragment
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Formerly known as Chafing Dish


« Reply #3429 on: 18:47:41, 31-08-2008 »

Having failed once again to find anything to hold my interest in Sibelius 6, I continue my headlong rush to the end of the alphabet with Tchaikovsky 4, courtesy of the Leningrad Philharmonic conducted by Mravinsky. Apropos the aforementioned can of worms I think one would be hard put to find an orchestral string section to equal the precision and intensity of this one.
Mravinsky delivers my favorite Tchaik 456, even as I've never particularly warmed to the pieces to the degree that their status in general seems to warrant.

Strina, thanks re the Egarr WTC II info. Some of the WTC I Fugues are so bizarre, especially the A-flat one; I almost am tempted to skip it whenever it comes up. But the A-flat from II is so deliciously brilliant, might well be my favorite.
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strinasacchi
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« Reply #3430 on: 19:00:12, 31-08-2008 »

Mravinsky delivers my favorite Tchaik 456

I had no idea he was that prolific! He leaves Haydn standing!  Shocked
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Turfan Fragment
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« Reply #3431 on: 19:03:00, 31-08-2008 »

Sorry that's pronounced fourfivesix not four fifty-six. I know but I'm trying to reduce my comma use.
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richard barrett
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« Reply #3432 on: 19:56:20, 31-08-2008 »

The alphabetical spinning goes on. Avoiding getting embroiled in Telemann, I went for Tippett's Concerto for Orchestra (the flute/harp duo at the opening could be soft-focus serialism à la Henze, I thought), which was succeeded by the same composer's Second Symphony, which I liked more than I remembered doing, the first two movements anyway, and then his Third, which has been happening for about a quarter of an hour. I can't remember the last time I listened to music all day. Probably the last time I was copying out a load of notes.
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brassbandmaestro
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The ties that bind


« Reply #3433 on: 20:02:38, 31-08-2008 »

Having a sequence.

Delius Violin Concerto(tasmin Little) Two Aquarles; On Hearing the First Cuckoo in Spring Intermezzo(Fennimore & Gerda) Dance Rhapsodies 1 & 2(Welsh NO O,Mackerras)

Elgar Cockaigne; Introduction & Allegro; Serenade for String O; Engima Variations(BBCSO/Andrew Davies).

Beethoven: Triple concerto(David Oistrakh, Mstislav Rostropovich, Sviatoslav Richter; Wagner Der Fliegende Hollander Overture; Parsifal: Preludes to Acts I & III(Berliner Philharmominker/Karajan).
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richard barrett
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« Reply #3434 on: 20:42:33, 31-08-2008 »

That's enough Tippett for today. I found the last movement of the Third a disappointment this time round. I think Heather Harper's attempt to steer somewhere in between "operatic" and (what she and/or Tippett might have thought of as) "bluesy" singing sounds extremely contrived. I think I'd prefer it if it were just one thing or the other, and the former would probably be more appropriate. But this is the only performance I've ever known. Do other singers take a different approach?

And now for something completely different - David Tudor: Dialects.
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