Stevo
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« Reply #30 on: 10:36:17, 01-03-2007 » |
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of course, it's all personal opinion.
but you are exactly....wrong.
Indeed. In particular, I find it amazing that anyone might regard PMD as 'twaddle'. Even if one is not sympathetic with his sound-world, Max has chosen distinctly unobscure, accessible topics for some of his works. To name but a few: "The Lighthouse" is (on one level) a good old fashioned ghost story, "Ave Maris Stella" is a powerful evocation of 'The Hour of the Wolf' (that time between darkness and sunrise at which most births and deaths occur) and "Stone Litany" is a quite inspired setting of Viking inscriptions readily on view at Maeshowe broch in Orkney. Add to that the very powerful ecological messages of "Black Pentecost" and "The Turn of the Tide" and you've a pretty wide-ranging set of subject matter. Twaddle? I think not. |
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rachfan
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« Reply #31 on: 10:38:36, 01-03-2007 » |
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For those who don't know the Norstein film 'Tale of Tales' it really is, as Stevo says, one of those rare 'once seen never forgotten' works of art that worms its way into your consciousness and affects how you see the world from then on. I'm always haranguing people at bus-stops or supermarket queues to see it. Norstein's own story and his relations with the Soviet authorities is a fascinating one too. George, I would like to see this film. Is there a source of a DVD closer to home than the USA? Thanks for any help. |
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George Garnett
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« Reply #33 on: 11:06:00, 01-03-2007 » |
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Loveday didn't mean that Ades was guilty of 'alf-inching stuff from 'Maxie' and 'Harry' as well as those mentioned did s/he? [Ah, looking at other posts, probably not. First interpretation stands  ] There is an outlet you can get it from in the UK, rachfan (assuming that is where home is?). There is a DVD issued as a companion to a book by Clare Kitson 'Yuri Norstein and Tale of Tales: An Animator's Journey'. It is published by a small independent, John Libby Publishing, and you can get it through: Book Representation and Distribution Ltd (BR&D), Hadleigh Hall, London Road, Hadleigh, Essex SS7 2DE. There's an e-mail address, info@bookreps.com and I thought there was a website but I'm failing to find it at the moment. The DVD contains all (?), or certainly most of, Norstein's work, not just Tale of Tales itself. (Oh Gawd, I've just realised I'm beginning to sound just like one of Mr Barrington-Coupe's alter egos  . 'Unknown masterpiece. Only available from a doubtful sounding address. 'Hadleigh Hall?' Word of mouth recommendation.') You can buy the DVD and the book separately. When I bought mine it was £17.62 for the DVD and £17.50 for the book. If anyone does go for it as a result of all these recommendations I only hope (gulp) you like it. I think we're safe though. |
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« Last Edit: 11:45:53, 01-03-2007 by George Garnett »
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Bryn
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« Reply #34 on: 11:11:36, 01-03-2007 » |
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Ah, the langtoninfo URL is for the book, but they may well fo the DVD too.
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rachfan
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« Reply #36 on: 11:26:59, 01-03-2007 » |
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Bryn, It is confusing. I have emailed them. Thanks for your help.
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rachfan
Posts: 24
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« Reply #37 on: 11:29:33, 01-03-2007 » |
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There is an outlet you can get it from in the UK, rachfan (assuming that is where home is?). There is a DVD issued as a companion to a book by Clare Kitson 'Yuri Norstein and Tale of Tales: An Animator's Journey'. It is published by a small independent, John Libby Publishing, and you can get it through: Book Representation and Distribution Ltd (BR&D, Hadleigh Hall, London Road, Hadleigh, Essex SS7 2DE. There's an e-mail address, info@bookreps. com and I thought there was a website but I'm failing to find it at the moment.
If anyone does go for it as a result of all these recommendations I only hope (gulp) you like it. I think we're safe though.
Thanks, George. I'm waiting for a reply from them, too. |
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roslynmuse
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« Reply #38 on: 11:34:23, 01-03-2007 » |
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Re Maxwell Davies - I find the power of his early music conspicuously lacking in almost everything he has written (that I have heard, admittedly) over the last twenty years or so. Like Britten, he seems to be a victim of his own success and my perception is that much of this recent stuff is woefully underwritten and/or little more than occasional music. The pieces Stevo cites are - again, like Britten - powerful more for their subject matter than the music itself (IMHO). Excepting The Lighthouse, perhaps, which has some fine musical moments as well as being a genuinely gripping tale, and well-paced to boot (much better than, say, Owen Wingrave, which is promising up to the last 10 - 15 minutes.) Birtwistle, on the other hand, seems to me to get better and better...
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lovedaydewfall
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« Reply #39 on: 12:19:34, 02-03-2007 » |
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Well, there are all sorts of ways they might make an alternative living, such as teaching other people how to produce meaningless twaddle in the guise of music! And also it's worth saying that there are many other names who ought to be included with Ades, such as Maxie D., Harry Birtwistle, and scores of others.
yes! ades, maxwell davies and birtwistle are the best known british contemporary composers, so jolly well done for being able to remember their names. have you really really sat down and listened to this music? really? really??'maxie d' and 'harry' birtwistle, along with 'scores of others', including Knussen, turnage, bryars, payne, matthews, berio (rip) etc etc, produce(d) some of the most exciting and colourful music around today. try listening to some. i mean listen.of course, it's all personal opinion. but you are exactly.... wrong. So, Tonybob, you think I am wrong. Your "scores of others" also fit in, except for Payne, who is a proper composer, and Matthews, who has written at least one work that I admire, so he must be OK too. But those other creeps you mention................Ugh! I mean - there's nothing to listen to in Davies, Birtwistle, Turnage & co. except egotistical posturing and attempts to show how original they hope they are. |
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harmonyharmony
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« Reply #40 on: 12:25:17, 02-03-2007 » |
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Could I ask which pieces by Payne and Matthews (David or Colin?) you particularly admire?
Could I also ask which pieces by Davies, Birtwistle and Turnage that you particularly despise?
I'm interested in other people's tastes and would be especially interested to read your definition of a 'proper composer'.
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'is this all we can do?' anonymous student of the University of Berkeley, California quoted in H. Draper, 'The new student revolt' (New York: Grove Press, 1965) http://www.myspace.com/itensemble |
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lovedaydewfall
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« Reply #41 on: 12:39:56, 02-03-2007 » |
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Re Maxwell Davies - I find the power of his early music conspicuously lacking in almost everything he has written (that I have heard, admittedly) over the last twenty years or so. Like Britten, he seems to be a victim of his own success and my perception is that much of this recent stuff is woefully underwritten and/or little more than occasional music. The pieces Stevo cites are - again, like Britten - powerful more for their subject matter than the music itself (IMHO). Excepting The Lighthouse, perhaps, which has some fine musical moments as well as being a genuinely gripping tale, and well-paced to boot (much better than, say, Owen Wingrave, which is promising up to the last 10 - 15 minutes.) Birtwistle, on the other hand, seems to me to get better and better...
Well said, Roslynmuse: that's the whole point: there are plenty of non-musical ideas there in PMD, such as the material you mentioned, but he lacks the creative musical ability to realise them. The whole point about the art of music is that it starts where words leave off! Maxie is full of passe political opinions,. and literary ideas, but he doesn't realise them in music. The only disagreement I have with what you said is that there isn't even any power in his early works - it's all rubbish. But I must say that for anyone on these boards who can derive any aesthetic pleasure from the so-called music of the contemporary "composers" cited they are lucky and blessed with good fortune. For me to have to endure even a few seconds of the trash churned out by PMD, Birtwistle, Turnage, and plenty of others is a form of purgatory. I see that Harmonyharmony wants to know which pieces by Payne and Matthews I admire. Well, first I must quote Robert Simpson who said that the 20th century was the first time in history that someone could be a composer without also being a musician. Payne is a great musician as his reconstruction of Elgar's 3rd Symphony shows. And Matthews' "Pluto" is a fine expressive and appropriate piece. Clearly these two at least are musicians, whereas it is not evident to me that the other figures mentioned are "real" musicians, but merely manipulators of the techniques of musical composition. The two are not by any means the same thing. So a "proper" composer is one who is also a musician, as per Simpson's brilliant observation. Of course, I suppose you are going to retort that it's all a matter of individual perception: what you might think is great music may not seem so to me. There's not much we can do about that, unless we are prepared to adopt the BBC mentality that a good or great composer is one that we decide is good or great, and listeners must just accept our diktat (as with the freedom of the old message-boards!!!!!!!!) |
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roslynmuse
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« Reply #42 on: 13:20:04, 02-03-2007 » |
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Just to stress my angle here in the brief minutes I have before taking a class (on a contemporary British composer) there are many PMD works from the 60s I listen to with great pleasure, and performing Hymnos has been a fantastic experience. But I don't think his recent music stands up well in comparison.
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harmonyharmony
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« Reply #43 on: 14:05:58, 02-03-2007 » |
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But I don't think his recent music stands up well in comparison.
You're certainly not alone on that one, as previous discussions have demonstrated. I have to say that, for me, recent Birtwistle doesn't have the umph that his music from the late 70s and early 80s seems to have. I also don't fancy a lot of Turnage's output. Payne is a great musician as his reconstruction of Elgar's 3rd Symphony shows. And Matthews' "Pluto" is a fine expressive and appropriate piece.
That's very clear. Thank you. Have you heard anything else by either of these composers? I would suggest that it would make an interesting listening exercise. Anthony Payne has got a new CD out and this site: http://www.nmcrec.co.uk/?page=home/news.html&id=101 gives you the option of 'trying before you buy'. There are details of a recent Colin Matthews disk here: http://www.nmcrec.co.uk/?page=catalogue/item.html&id=93 with similar listening options. I think that we may have differing definitions over how to define a 'musician'. At present, if you'll forgive me for putting words in your mouth, your definition seems primarily to be as follows: that a composer who is also a musician, must complete or complement an existing work in a manner that is stylistically unobtrusive and congruent with the original style of said work. Is that accurate? If not, please can you furnish us with a better definition. Thanks |
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'is this all we can do?' anonymous student of the University of Berkeley, California quoted in H. Draper, 'The new student revolt' (New York: Grove Press, 1965) http://www.myspace.com/itensemble |
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Stevo
Posts: 56
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« Reply #44 on: 14:27:13, 02-03-2007 » |
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I see that Harmonyharmony wants to know which pieces by Payne and Matthews I admire. Well, first I must quote Robert Simpson who said that the 20th century was the first time in history that someone could be a composer without also being a musician. Payne is a great musician as his reconstruction of Elgar's 3rd Symphony shows. And Matthews' "Pluto" is a fine expressive and appropriate piece. Clearly these two at least are musicians, whereas it is not evident to me that the other figures mentioned are "real" musicians, but merely manipulators of the techniques of musical composition. These are, if a may say so, rather unfortunate examples. Both works piggyback on the efforts of others. Whatever else may be said of PMD, he hasn't found fame by 'filling in the blanks' of incomplete works, or bolting his piece on to a much, much more famous one in order for it to get heard (and recorded). Having said that, I cannot think of any other works by Payne or Matthews. I'm sure they have written some. I'm wondering how kind posterity will be to them. |
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