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Author Topic: British IN Germany  (Read 2907 times)
jennyhorn
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« on: 00:43:45, 27-04-2007 »

The shelves of the main record store in Munich were overflowing with Elgar and Tippett.
As for living composers the score was Robert Simpson 1,Michael Finnissy 3,Ferneyhough 0 (surprisingly)Birtwistle 5 as against Helmut Lachenmann (3) some more familiar names over here were also absent.

this is of course a blunt way of measuring the popularity of British music in Germany but it`s a vague indicator.
Maybe OSudden and Richard Barrett have a more detailed perspective.
A German composer once told me that Brit music wasn`t `edgy` enough.
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richard barrett
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« Reply #1 on: 01:15:54, 27-04-2007 »

I have to begin by saying (and no doubt Oliver would back me up were he here) that Munich is in many ways not typical of Germany, which is a much more devolved place than the UK (Bavaria has at least as much "independence" from Berlin as Scotland has from London, for example). For a start, with the exception of the efforts of K.A.Hartmann and later J.A.Riedl at the Bayerischer Rundfunk, post-1945 composition has never had much of a profile there compared to many other German cities, and it's generally perceived as being a fairly conservative kind of place, culturally as well as politically.

As for "edgy", I would say that the music produced in any sufficiently large country is going to embody such diversity that reducing it to such a throwaway comment is worse than meaningless. Don't you think?
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #2 on: 01:23:15, 27-04-2007 »

As for "edgy", I would say that the music produced in any sufficiently large country is going to embody such diversity that reducing it to such a throwaway comment is worse than meaningless. Don't you think?

Well, there is of course diversity in the music of any moderately large country, but some common features can also be discerned in a musical culture (it's reasonably clear to me that lots of highly diverse French music sounds recognisably 'French', for example). I sort of imagine that the comment in question might imply that, to that listener, British music has a certain detachment, aloofness, eschewal of anything too extreme and of intense seriousness, emotional tepidity, and so on, all the things one might associate with that which is 'middle-of-the-road'. There are of course exceptions (though it's possible they might seem more similar to other types of British music to an outsider), but to me it's not that surprising that someone might arrive at such a conclusion, certainly when comparing British music to that from Germany. He/she made that comment, but may have had various other more detailed things to say about British music as well; we don't know that he reduced everything to that one throwaway comment.
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
time_is_now
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« Reply #3 on: 10:48:38, 27-04-2007 »

The shelves of the main record store in Munich were overflowing with Elgar and Tippett.
As for living composers the score was Robert Simpson 1,Michael Finnissy 3,Ferneyhough 0 (surprisingly)Birtwistle 5 as against Helmut Lachenmann (3) some more familiar names over here were also absent.

I'm surprised about the Tippett. I've endeavoured on several occasions to find out for myself, by asking friends abroad, how well Tippett 'exports', and the answer always seemed to be 'not at all'. Certainly one German (well, actually Serbian, but German-resident) friend gave me this impression. Do any messageboarders with German connections know more?


Of course, it's always possible that what's in stock in a record store is what isn't selling ... Roll Eyes
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
Mary Chambers
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« Reply #4 on: 10:58:40, 27-04-2007 »

If i look at lists of forthcoming performances of works by Britten, it always seems to me that great many of them are in Germany.
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George Garnett
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« Reply #5 on: 11:04:27, 27-04-2007 »

There have been IIRC quite a few productions of Tippett operas in Germany and in German (somewhat surprisingly, I agree). Suzanne Robinson's book about Tippett has a bit about this although my memory of trying to read it quickly in a university library before being ejected as an intruder is a bit hazy.
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smittims
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« Reply #6 on: 11:08:26, 27-04-2007 »

When assessing the popularity or saleability of any music it's important to decide 'in relation to what'? I'm saddened to hear that Tippett isn't highly regarded in Germany as he had a very European outlook and much sympathy with German   thought and culture, one of the few Englishmen of his time to read Goethe and Schiller .

But Tippett isn't wildly popular in Britain.   I think the second  biggest 'classical'  CD shop in Britain is the  HMV e in Manchester and they have only about ten Tippett CDs in the browser.

I have encountered disimissive attitudes about British music and musicians,particularly among French and Americans,and  I supect it has more to do with Politics than music,e.g.the strong feeling in America that everything British is small ,incompetent and trivial.

The flip side of this is that many Americans  cannot see how GW Bush is such a ludicrous little man, an almost Chplinesque buffoon, in Elnglish eyes.
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time_is_now
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« Reply #7 on: 11:26:59, 27-04-2007 »

When assessing the popularity or saleability of any music it's important to decide 'in relation to what'? I'm saddened to hear that Tippett isn't highly regarded in Germany as he had a very European outlook and much sympathy with German   thought and culture, one of the few Englishmen of his time to read Goethe and Schiller .
When you say 'one of the few Englishmen of his time', are we talking about 'few' as in 3, or 30, or 3000? I would imagine a good few professors of literature and philosophy read those writers. Also, when you say 'of his time', are you talking about the 1920s and 30s, or the 70s and 80s? Or are you making a subtle pun on the title of Tippett's most famous work?

I'm afraid you'll also have to explain the 'in relation to what?' thing to me ...


Quote
I think the second  biggest 'classical'  CD shop in Britain is the  HMV e in Manchester
I think that's extremely unlikely. (What's the biggest meant to be, incidentally?)


Quote
I have encountered disimissive attitudes about British music and musicians,particularly among French and Americans,and  I supect it has more to do with Politics than music,e.g.the strong feeling in America that everything British is small ,incompetent and trivial.
You may be right, but what does 'small, incompetent and trivial' have to do with 'Politics [rather] than music'?
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
jennyhorn
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« Reply #8 on: 11:36:59, 27-04-2007 »

written in great haste, i did in fact mean BRITTEN, and not TIPPETT (who i tend to think about more often)- i am going back to Munich so will have a check on the Tippett quota-
thanks for all of this feedback-it`s very interesting.
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time_is_now
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« Reply #9 on: 11:39:50, 27-04-2007 »

Ah, that explains a lot, Jen Wink

Bearing in mind Richard's comment that Munich is untypical, can you nevertheless check Turnage, Benjamin, Anderson, Adès etc. as well as Tippett? Thanks.
« Last Edit: 11:41:42, 27-04-2007 by time_is_now » Logged

The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
time_is_now
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« Reply #10 on: 11:41:58, 27-04-2007 »

Oh, also Jonathan Harvey.
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
Swan_Knight
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« Reply #11 on: 11:52:22, 27-04-2007 »

If that's what the Americans really think of British music (of which I'm not much of a fan myself), then it's a bit rich: small country that we are, we've still managed to produce one major symphonist (Elgar), who also wrote benchmark concerto works.  The Americans have come nowhere near matching this achievement and it seems unlikely that they will: Aaron Copland, who is apparently their best 'shot', is the most provincial composer I've ever encountered.
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Bryn
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« Reply #12 on: 12:00:09, 27-04-2007 »

A "major symphonist" who managed to complete all of two symphonies. Big deal, eh? Glass would appear to have written more symphonies than Elgar had hot dinners, (not that I have bothered listening to most of them). Now Ives, there was a major symphonist, even if you forget the first two, (which you shouldn't, of course), or the Universe, (which you can't, 'cos he only sketched out the plan). Wink
« Last Edit: 12:14:36, 27-04-2007 by Bryn » Logged
Swan_Knight
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« Reply #13 on: 12:06:41, 27-04-2007 »

It's about quality, not quantity, Bryn!

I'm not impressed by the current generation of American composers....they may be 'cool' names to drop, but can they really cut the mustard? And, on a personal note, I can't help observing that the most pretentious people I know ALL seem to own Glass CDs. (NB - I'm sure a lot of non-pretentious people own them, too, but I must speak as I find!)

As to the German attitude to British music....well, I think it's probably reasonable: you should tend to respect the views of your older or contemporaenous relatives; the mewlings of your 'kid brother', though, should be treated with caution, if not appropriate contempt!  Grin
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...so flatterten lachend die Locken....
marbleflugel
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« Reply #14 on: 12:07:03, 27-04-2007 »

Going back a number of years,early 80s, but I remember entire rooms devoted to LP collections, hundreds upon hundreds,among middle incomes and youngers- a real love of music you rarely encounter here beyond this board, music clubs etc.  Import taxation was low and a lot of US product was pressed in Germany as I remember.
And with that came a certain generosity of spirit as far as I could discern. over 3 years or so. But the point about US viewsof British music is presumably linked to its corporate and funding structures, eg the lack of a Brit system of habitual public subscription and donation by way of stakeholding. In Germany there was generous public funding and a consensus that this was a good thing, but recent recession and Merkelism may be looking at this again. Yet the cultural habit of esteem of the creative is maybe strong enough to endure political and economic trends. I am out of touch with the situation on the ground, must head back over there sometime soon to take the waters.Enjoy your quest Jenny, and it'd be nice to more from you (and RB) about the public climate politically for ye arts.
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