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IgnorantRockFan
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« on: 09:31:34, 20-07-2007 » |
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..."chorus"? Somebody was suggesting that it should be "chori" but I have never heard that in my life and find it very hard to believe.  But then, I have seen people on these message boards write "concerti" instead of "concertos", something I had never encountered before, so maybe to those in the know... |
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« Last Edit: 10:15:11, 20-07-2007 by IgnorantRockFan »
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Allegro, ma non tanto
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Baziron
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« Reply #1 on: 09:38:54, 20-07-2007 » |
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..."chorus"? Somebody was suggesting that it should be "chori" but I have never heard that in my life and find it very hard to believe. But then, I have seen people on these message boards write "concerti" instead of "concertos", something I had never encountered before, so maybe to those in the know... More to the point, what is "plusal"? When the 16th-c Venetian musicians coined the term Chori spezzati ("spaced/divided choirs") they described the practice of placing two choirs in opposite galleries for alternate or antiphonal singing. Baz |
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richard barrett
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« Reply #2 on: 09:42:34, 20-07-2007 » |
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I would say "choruses" - "cori" is the Italian plural of "coro" (as in "cori spezzati" for the "separated choruses" of the early Baroque, or Handel's "concerti a due cori" for two instrumental groups) but as you see neither has an "h". I used to use "concerti" myself (given that "concerto" is an actual Italian word) but came to think it was somewhat affected, however "correct". (Ollie made a similar point about "chalumeaus" rather than "chalumeaux".) But it's a question of taste really.
I've never seen "chori" anywhere though.
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time_is_now
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« Reply #3 on: 09:56:13, 20-07-2007 » |
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I usually say 'concertos', although it doesn't really bother me all that much if people say 'concerti'. It's true that it's a direct borrowing from Italian, but then there are direct borrowings from Latin where I would never use the Latin plural form, and others where I would. ('Fora' and 'stadia' as the plurals of 'forum' and 'stadium' sounds ridiculously affected to me, 'cacti' is OK but I'd probably use 'cactuses' myself, whereas the plural of 'stimulus' is most definitely 'stimuli'.)
Of course, there are other loan-words which operate in English quite differently from in the language they're borrowed from. 'Panini' in Italian is a plural but I've never heard it used as one in English, and 'graffiti' sounds fine to me as a singular, too, even though I know it's the plural of 'graffito' (drawing/drawings).
But yes. Choruses. I've never heard 'chori' in English, even from the most affected people!
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
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David_Underdown
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« Reply #4 on: 10:08:16, 20-07-2007 » |
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I've only heard in the title of the director of music at Southwell Cathedral "Rector Chori", but that's direct from latin of course.
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David
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time_is_now
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« Reply #5 on: 10:10:08, 20-07-2007 » |
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I've only heard in the title of the director of music at Southwell Cathedral "Rector Chori", but that's direct from latin of course. And it's also a genitive, rather than a simple plural. |
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
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IgnorantRockFan
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« Reply #6 on: 10:14:47, 20-07-2007 » |
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More to the point, what is "plusal"?
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Allegro, ma non tanto
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IgnorantRockFan
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« Reply #7 on: 10:15:35, 20-07-2007 » |
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Ha!  |
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Allegro, ma non tanto
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Baziron
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« Reply #8 on: 10:26:07, 20-07-2007 » |
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I would say "choruses" - "cori" is the Italian plural of "coro" (as in "cori spezzati" for the "separated choruses" of the early Baroque, or Handel's "concerti a due cori" for two instrumental groups) but as you see neither has an "h". I used to use "concerti" myself (given that "concerto" is an actual Italian word) but came to think it was somewhat affected, however "correct". (Ollie made a similar point about "chalumeaus" rather than "chalumeaux".) But it's a question of taste really.
I've never seen "chori" anywhere though.
Richard is quite correct - although in my defence (weak though it is) the spelling "chori spezzati" is found very frequently, even in academic writings (incorrect though it is) - try Googling the term! The word "chori", however, is often encountered in its correct Latin form. One immediate example is the work by Lupi entitled Chori Sacrae Virginis Marie Cameracensis (printed in 1542). I cannot think of anybody who - using the term "chorus" in reference to an actual choral item (e.g. "Hellelujah Chorus") - would refer to several such pieces by a term other than "choruses". Baz |
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IgnorantRockFan
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« Reply #9 on: 10:31:45, 20-07-2007 » |
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I like Richard's solution of using the Italian plural if it's a real Italian word but the English plural otherwise (assuming I'm understanding you correctly). Yes it may sound a bit affected, but at least it gives a clear rule for resolving disputes.
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Allegro, ma non tanto
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #10 on: 10:33:57, 20-07-2007 » |
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I usually say 'concertos', although it doesn't really bother me all that much if people say 'concerti'. It's true that it's a direct borrowing from Italian, but then there are direct borrowings from Latin where I would never use the Latin plural form, and others where I would. And in Italian also piano, for example. Cello too, perhaps. Gamba? (One [viola da] gamba, two [viole da] gamba?)
Of course, there are other loan-words which operate in English quite differently from in the language they're borrowed from. 'Panini' in Italian is a plural but I've never heard it used as one in English,
I can't make myself ask for a panini, still less for two paninis, and I know I sound like a complete salad tosser if I ask for a panino although of course when I go to Italy it's a bit of a relief to be able to. Usually I wuss out and ask for (for example) "one of the roast vegetable panini". Is there anyone out there who says timpano? I admit that in actual speech with actual people for me the word has become timp (when it's not Pauke or timbale). One timp, two timps. Does anyone say cors anglais? Stravinsky used to specify one trombono, two tromboni. Oops. On the other hand I don't see any reason why consensus is necessarily always desirable... (e.g. "Hellelujah Chorus") One of my very favourites. |
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« Last Edit: 10:36:31, 20-07-2007 by oliver sudden »
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time_is_now
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« Reply #11 on: 10:58:14, 20-07-2007 » |
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And in Italian also piano, for example. Cello too, perhaps. Gamba? (One [viola da] gamba, two [viole da] gamba?)
Indeed. Or, simply, viola/viole. (Actually, if the plural was 'viole' rather than 'violas', maybe more composers would remember to write 'le altre' rather than 'gli altri' on the viola line, which I corrected on a score the other day, not for the first time. A vain hope no doubt!) I can't make myself ask for a panini, still less for two paninis, and I know I sound like a complete salad tosser if I ask for a panino although of course when I go to Italy it's a bit of a relief to be able to. Usually I wuss out and ask for (for example) "one of the roast vegetable panini". Well, you would, wouldn't you!  Does anyone say cors anglais? That reminds me of Anthony Hopkins as C.S. Lewis in Shadowlands (not a film I particularly think of a lot except for this scene, which must say something about me!), trying to order more than one gin and tonic from a hotel room service when he finally gets a girlfriend after a life of resolute bachelorhood ... |
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
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autoharp
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« Reply #12 on: 11:03:32, 20-07-2007 » |
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What about euphonia, Richard ? (from Baritone horns and euphoniums)
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #13 on: 11:04:22, 20-07-2007 » |
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Or, simply, viola/viole. (Actually, if the plural was 'viole' rather than 'violas', maybe more composers would remember to write 'le altre' rather than 'gli altri' on the viola line, which I corrected on a score the other day, not for the first time. A vain hope no doubt!) 'Was' or were'?  Another strong argument for composers to use the language they actually speak. I do hope you also make sure that the feminine forms such as tutte, unite and sola are used for the viola, bass drum and trumpet. And then there's the sordina question. Not to mention leggero, controfagotto and contrabbasso. Oops, I just did. Usually I wuss out and ask for (for example) "one of the roast vegetable panini". Well, you would, wouldn't you! Are you implying I'm a pedant, a wuss or both? It's a light-haired law enforcement officer. |
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« Last Edit: 11:06:23, 20-07-2007 by oliver sudden »
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time_is_now
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« Reply #14 on: 11:04:54, 20-07-2007 » |
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euphonia Isn't that a piece by Thomas Adès? |
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
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