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Author Topic: The Pedantry Thread  (Read 14586 times)
time_is_now
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« Reply #465 on: 14:51:38, 13-01-2008 »

she is as Eric Partridge points out in the company of Shakespeare, Coleridge, Chesterton, and Ludwig Wittgenstein
And indeed more modestly of Member Time-is-Now, who regards the "misplaced only" rule as one of those 'logical' rather than 'language-specific' prohibitions introduced by persons who imagine the system of a language's grammar may be worked out by common sense rather than observed by watching the behaviour of intelligent users.

Quote
One must be on one's guard against ambiguity ceaselessly!
On the contrary! No grammatical rule is determined solely by the need to avoid ambiguity, and one ought to delight in ambiguity wherever it is found to be possible without breaking a grammatical rule.

And now I shall go to open the Sunday paper has.


Edited: One day I will remember to close my quotes properly.
« Last Edit: 18:47:24, 13-01-2008 by time_is_now » Logged

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Sydney Grew
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« Reply #466 on: 18:36:49, 13-01-2008 »

she is as Eric Partridge points out in the company of Shakespeare, Coleridge, Chesterton, and Ludwig Wittgenstein
And indeed more modestly of Member Time-is-Now, who regards the "misplaced only" rule as one of those 'logical' rather than 'language-specific' prohibitions introduced by persons who imagine the system of a language's grammar may be worked out by common sense rather than observed by watching the behaviour of intelligent users.
Let us be clear: Partridge was not saying that those distinguished authors (to whose number may be added Jespersen even) were not mistaken and that they would not had they given more thought to what they had written have rewritten it correctly. In other words the lapse in their intelligence was perfectly real objective and measurable. Here for example is Wittgenstein's downright howler: "We can only substitute a clear symbolism for an unprecise one by inspecting the phenomena which we want to describe." Poor old Ludwig was having a bad day that day that is all! Indeed those five cited gentlemen were like all of us mere fallible men but it is our duty here below ever to strive and not if we may descend to the vulgar to throw in the towel is not it.
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Antheil
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« Reply #467 on: 18:47:53, 13-01-2008 »

I only use jars of paste for Thai food, never for Indian.

That is a good example of the "misplaced only" is not it? One must be on one's guard against ambiguity ceaselessly! But the lady Member may console herself with the thought that she is as Eric Partridge points out in the company of Shakespeare, Coleridge, Chesterton, and Ludwig Wittgenstein. . . .


I feel myself Highly Honoured to be singled out for my mangled grammar by such a great scholar as Mr. Sydney Grew.  In fact, I find myself becoming quite emotional that such a great man has even noticed such a humble and wretched mortal such as I.  Beggin' your Pardon, Seigneur Grew, for the impertinece of even speaking to a Gent such as what you is, Guvnor.  I therefor reatreat, backwards, bowing heavily and with many a scraping of footfalls.
« Last Edit: 18:51:29, 13-01-2008 by Antheil the Termite Lover » Logged

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Baz
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« Reply #468 on: 19:00:13, 13-01-2008 »

I only use jars of paste for Thai food, never for Indian.

That is a good example of the "misplaced only" is not it? One must be on one's guard against ambiguity ceaselessly! But the lady Member may console herself with the thought that she is as Eric Partridge points out in the company of Shakespeare, Coleridge, Chesterton, and Ludwig Wittgenstein. . . .


I feel myself Highly Honoured to be singled out for my mangled grammar by such a great scholar as Mr. Sydney Grew.  In fact, I find myself becoming quite emotional that such a great man has even noticed such a humble and wretched mortal such as I.  Beggin' your Pardon, Seigneur Grew, for the impertinece of even speaking to a Gent such as what you is, Guvnor.  I therefor reatreat, backwards, bowing heavily and with many a scraping of footfalls.

This only goes to show that not only "only" is capable of being misplaced. Surely sentence 2 above is a classic example of the "misplaced such" is not it?

 Cheesy
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time_is_now
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« Reply #469 on: 19:13:17, 13-01-2008 »

she is as Eric Partridge points out in the company of Shakespeare, Coleridge, Chesterton, and Ludwig Wittgenstein
And indeed more modestly of Member Time-is-Now, who regards the "misplaced only" rule as one of those 'logical' rather than 'language-specific' prohibitions introduced by persons who imagine the system of a language's grammar may be worked out by common sense rather than observed by watching the behaviour of intelligent users.
Let us be clear: Partridge was not saying that those distinguished authors (to whose number may be added Jespersen even) were not mistaken and that they would not had they given more thought to what they had written have rewritten it correctly.
I know he wasn't: that was already clear. But he was wrong. There is no "misplaced only" rule in English grammar.

The example you give from Wittgenstein is unfortunate not because we hope for grammatical accuracy from Wittgenstein (we do, of course, but that is not the problem here). It is unfortunate because ambiguity is not a good thing for a philosopher to indulge in, except intentionally. But ambiguity more generally can be a positive thing in written style, and I repeat: no grammatical rule is determined solely by the need to avoid ambiguity.

Anyway, I'll leave you to your Partridge. Anyone who can compile Shakespeare, Coleridge, Chesterton, Wittgenstein and Jespersen in a list of 'five distinguished gentlemen' probably has enough problems of his own to deal with without my input. Wink


Otto Jespersen
   
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

For the Norwegian comedian, see Otto Jespersen (comedian).
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
George Garnett
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« Reply #470 on: 19:15:06, 13-01-2008 »

Let us be clear: Partridge was not saying that those distinguished authors (to whose number may be added Jespersen even) were not mistaken and that they would not had they given more thought to what they had written have rewritten it correctly. In other words the lapse in their intelligence was perfectly real objective and measurable. Here for example is Wittgenstein's downright howler: "We can only substitute a clear symbolism for an unprecise one by inspecting the phenomena which we want to describe." Poor old Ludwig was having a bad day that day that is all!

It is just possible is not it that little Mr Wittgenstein the jolly Austrian rather than having a bad Herr day was teasing us with a little philosophical caprice? We should note should we not that his theme when supposedly carelessly he misplaced his 'only' in the sentence quoted was the very one of urging upon The Reader the importance of aligning linguistic structure with logical structure. The preceding sentences read:

"The idea is to express in an appropriate symbolism what in ordinary language leads to endless misunderstanding. That is to say, where ordinary language disguises logical structure...  we must replace it by a symbolism which gives a clearer picture of the logical structure."

We can only imagine can we not the belly laugh little Ludwig must have enjoyed when he conceived of committing a deliberate logical 'howler' in the very next sentence? What larks!
« Last Edit: 19:21:52, 13-01-2008 by George Garnett » Logged
martle
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« Reply #471 on: 19:20:16, 13-01-2008 »

We can only imagine can we not the belly laugh little Ludwig must have enjoyed when he conceived of committing a deliberate logical 'howler' in the very next sentence? What larks!

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Antheil
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« Reply #472 on: 19:24:00, 13-01-2008 »

wot larks, wot larks. Pip.  Just tell them Dorcas is willing



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Morticia
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« Reply #473 on: 19:29:33, 13-01-2008 »

Madam, this is a Sunday evening! Attend to your shanks and flaunt not your corsets!
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George Garnett
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« Reply #474 on: 19:31:40, 13-01-2008 »

Barkis       Barkis       Barkis       Barkis       Barkis       Barkis       Barkis       Barkis       Barkis       Barkis       Barkis       Barkis       Barkis       Barkis       Barkis       Barkis       Barkis       Barkis       Barkis       Barkis       Barkis       Barkis
BARKIS       BARKIS       BARKIS       BARKIS       BARKIS       BARKIS       BARKIS       BARKIS       BARKIS       BARKIS       BARKIS       BARKIS       BARKIS       BARKIS       BARKIS       BARKIS       BARKIS       BARKIS       BARKIS       BARKIS       BARKIS   

BARKIS       BARKIS       BARKIS       BARKIS       BARKIS       BARKIS       BARKIS       BARKIS       BARKIS      BARKIS       BARKIS       BARKIS       BARKIS       BARKIS       BARKIS       BARKIS       BARKIS

« Last Edit: 19:46:14, 13-01-2008 by George Garnett » Logged
Milly Jones
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« Reply #475 on: 19:45:05, 13-01-2008 »

It is indeed Barkis that is willing!

(Although Dorcas may be just as willing  Shocked)
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Antheil
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« Reply #476 on: 19:50:28, 13-01-2008 »

Sorry, George confused me with his references to Barkis and and does he want me to come to Snorbans?  Oh what is a girl to do?  Do large knickers come into it?

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George Garnett
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« Reply #477 on: 20:06:20, 13-01-2008 »

(Although Dorcas may be just as willing  Shocked)

You are, as ever, quite right, Milly. There is no doubt a great deal and wide variety of willingness out there among the Dorcases as well as among the Barkises. I was wrong to suggest otherwise. As with love so with willingness: there is no upper limit or rationing system in play.
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time_is_now
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« Reply #478 on: 21:00:29, 13-01-2008 »

As with love so with willingness: there is no upper limit or rationing system in play.
That's lovely, George, and you're quite right of course. Smiley Although it does remind me of a certain late British composer, not unknown for his extra-marital affections, whose wife who once told a friend of mine at a wine reception, perhaps slightly too enthusiastically:

'******* is a very generous man, you know! And there is a lot of love to go round ...'
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
Sydney Grew
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« Reply #479 on: 13:55:59, 16-01-2008 »

It is just possible is not it that little Mr Wittgenstein the jolly Austrian rather than having a bad Herr day was teasing us with a little philosophical caprice?

Well! After several days' pondering we now incline to accept Mr. Garnett's theory. But the motive may have been not so much Wittgenstein's desire to tease as his wish to provide matter sufficient to prolong the otherwise flagging attention of one of the peachier and creamier of his students at some tutorial tête-à-tête!

For of course Wittgenstein was a member of the homo-sexualistic legion. The eminent W. W. Bartley has a forty-page chapter entitled "On Wittgenstein and Homosexuality" and containing sub-sections such as "The Question of the Relevance of his Homosexuality to Wittgenstein's Philosophy" and "Some Attempts to Link the Homosexuality and the Thought," yet after considerable consideration seems to conclude that on the whole there was little connection. George Steiner on the other hand is all for it, pointing out that "Eros and language mesh at every point. . . . It is likely that human sexuality and speech developed in close-knit reciprocity. . . . The seminal and the semantic functions . . . together they construe the grammar of being."

Wittgenstein himself asserted that true ethical judgements - judgements of "absolute value" he called them - transcend the factual, and are supernatural. "What is good is also divine," he said. "The absolute good, were it a describable state of affairs, and it is not, would be one which everybody, independent of his tastes and inclinations, would necessarily bring about or feel guilty for not bringing about. But no state of affairs has, in itself, the coercive power of an absolute judge." Oh dear! That is intolerably disappointing of him is it not? It displays a fundamental lack of imagination and verve and is (therefore) entirely wrong. We are reminded of one of our own teachers who, himself a pupil of Wittgenstein, attempted to teach us Logic. How horrified and infuriated we were by the inadequacy of everything he said!

But Wittgenstein's life is rather more significant than his philosophy. Let us end here by rehearsing a few facts for Members:

1) Der kleine Wittgenstein, as he was known, was only five foot six; Mr. Garnett is quite right to call him "little"!

2) Little Luki, as he was also known, many times in his youth had Brahms in the house.

3) For the first fourteen years of his life he was educated at home; in this he was like Marie Corelli. Private education seems to produce exceptional people moulded in strange and superior ways does not it?

4) Then in 1903 he was suddenly sent to a day-school in Linz, where he found himself a school-mate of Adolf Hitler. Here they are together:


Hitler and Wittgenstein shared a talent for accurate and prolonged whistling. One of the most interesting of the many good books about Wittgenstein is entitled "The Jew of Linz"; it deals with the whole complex question of their long relationship.

5) While yet a youth Wittgenstein had heard Den Meistersinger thirty times, and he even set up a rating system for composers! Wagner he judged to be a "second-rater" because a mere imitator of Beethoven; in Wagner "Beethoven's cosmic irony had become earthly or bourgeois" Wittgenstein concluded. At one point he planned to become a conductor.

6) But we next catch sight of Luki at the age of nineteen, on the moors near Manchester in that ill-omened year 1908, experimenting with his own invention: a motor-powered flying machine. It was there on the moors that he made the acquaintance of Eccles, who became his only friend at that time. They would attend Halle concerts together, but in Manchester Wittgenstein's principal pastime was to relax in a bath of very hot water. It was as an odd fish that he was known even then.

7) Passing quickly over the similarity between Russell's and Wittgenstein's backgrounds, we come to 1929, when Wittgenstein is discovered sharing a staircase at Cambridge with Anthony Blunt.

8) Later, in 1935, Wittgenstein - a staunch defender of Stalin - was in Moscow at the same time as Blunt.

The good Professor Findlay - a family man if ever there was one - surely hyperbolizes when of Luki he writes, "At the age of 40 he looked like a youth of 20, with a god-like beauty, always an important feature at Cambridge. . . . The tea one drank with him tasted like nectar."
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