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Author Topic: The Pedantry Thread  (Read 14586 times)
time_is_now
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« Reply #480 on: 15:52:16, 16-01-2008 »

Little Luki, as he was also known, many times in his youth had Brahms in the house.
... although not, I take it, on the sofa?

It would indeed be an odd fish that relaxed in baths of very hot water.
« Last Edit: 21:11:25, 16-01-2008 by time_is_now » Logged

The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
George Garnett
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« Reply #481 on: 21:01:32, 16-01-2008 »

It is just possible is not it that little Mr Wittgenstein the jolly Austrian rather than having a bad Herr day was teasing us with a little philosophical caprice?

Well! After several days' pondering we now incline to accept Mr. Garnett's theory. But the motive may have been not so much Wittgenstein's desire to tease as his wish to provide matter sufficient to prolong the otherwise flagging attention of one of the peachier and creamier of his students at some tutorial tête-à-tête!

We are indebted to Dr Grew for the time and care he has taken in examining our supposition. None of us least of all I can offer anything conclusively to gainsay his own interesting variation on our tentative hypothesis. It may have been so! But alas this must all remain conjecture for who amongst us can truly pull back the double-lined curtains of monism and peer into the depths of other men's motives?

As so often when perusing Dr Grew's telling vignettes of incidents in men's lives we could not forbear from once again regretting the demise of the pedagogical walking holiday as a natural part of young men's varsity education. The mutual stimulation that this afforded between experienced older tutor and eager young pupil amid bracing air and savage scenery is something which would surely be of benefit to the pale and sickly youth of today as it was to those of us of an earlier more rugged generation? I may write Mr Balls of the Department of Skills about this but no doubt will be told that the expense of all the hiking boots would be too great for the vast numbers now entering our varsities and poly-technix.

We will admit that our interest was piqued by Dr Grew's revelation that he had received instruction in Logick from one of Herr Wittgenstein's own pupils. Who could the intermediary be we wonder. We ourselves were privileged to take the rudiments of Logick from Herr Professor Stefan Korner who had himself attended a number of Herr Wittgenstein's famous seminars in Cambridge. It was almost as if one had sat on Czerny's knee when learning the forte-piano! And what tales he had to tell of the merry japes that went on! Is it possible that Dr Grew and I sucked at the same philosophical breast?     
« Last Edit: 21:04:03, 16-01-2008 by George Garnett » Logged
time_is_now
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« Reply #482 on: 23:35:59, 16-01-2008 »

Got me thinking, though, when did we stop saying 'Born at....' and start saying 'Born in....'

Born in Cremona in 1567.... S. Grew would not like the two 'in' words in the same clause, maybe Scholes did not.
'At' was for towns; 'in' was always standard usage for countries. Mr Grew and chums would have had no problem with the two 'ins' in 'Born in England in 1908' ...
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
John W
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« Reply #483 on: 00:18:59, 17-01-2008 »

Thank you tinners, what about counties? In?
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time_is_now
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« Reply #484 on: 00:22:46, 17-01-2008 »

what about counties? In?
Yes.

I don't really know why the 'at' thing went out of fashion, nor when 'in' was first considered acceptable for a town/city. (I've a feeling 'in' may in fact always have been used for larger cities, though ...) One of those mysteries: bit like the hyphen that seems to have disappeared from 'to-day' and 'to-morrow' in the middle of the last century without so much as a how's-your-tinners.
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
Tony Watson
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« Reply #485 on: 00:43:33, 17-01-2008 »

The OED says that it's at for all towns except London, but the rule can be extended to large places. Scholes, mentioned above, talks about a certain composer (Sullivan) "born in London". So it seems to be a question of size. And yet we always say that Jesus was born in a stable, never at.
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John W
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« Reply #486 on: 00:47:51, 17-01-2008 »

and IN Bethlehem  Roll Eyes
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Sydney Grew
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« Reply #487 on: 00:56:09, 17-01-2008 »

Little Luki, as he was also known, many times in his youth had Brahms in the house.
... although not, I take it, on the sofa?

Some mistake there. You were expected Mr. Now to ask "What is a Brahm?" . . . Not that we have any ready reply we hasten to add.

P.S. It appears does it not that we should have written "he was suddenly sent to a day-school at Linz." Wittgenstein once wrote "My bad spelling is connected with the whole of the rest of my character and my weakness in study." He would refer to the other boys in his class as "Mist" (German for "that shower").
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #488 on: 08:20:22, 17-01-2008 »

You were expected Mr. Now to ask "What is a Brahm?" . . . Not that we have any ready reply we hasten to add.

http://www.brahm.com/

Mr Grew adopts a very elegant translation of Mist but at least modern-day Teutons (und solche, die es werden wollen Wink) generally use it to mean something a little stronger.

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Sydney Grew
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« Reply #489 on: 10:50:06, 17-01-2008 »

    No grammatical rule is determined solely by the need to avoid ambiguity, and one ought to delight in ambiguity wherever it is found to be possible without breaking a grammatical rule.

    We are not quite sure what the Member means there, and frankly his "solely" sounds somewhat suspicious. Might we request an example?

    In the mean time Members may wish to consider the following familiar cases:
    • he was wearing new red socks and boots;
    • railmen defy union order to stop coal shipments;
    • he had better taste in films than girls;
    • I didn't go because it was my birthday;
    • I'll tell you when they arrive;
    • if the lady is agreeable;
    • fine old houses are demanding mistresses;
    • he gave her dog biscuits.

    The need for the disambiguation of all of these cases and indeed for the application of grammatical rules additional to the deficient ones that are used is both evident and pressing; nevertheless we seem to find ourselves somehow in agreement with the Member without knowing exactly what he means, because it is true that in no case may the need of the aforementioned supplementary applications be said to "determine grammatical rules," solely or even part[ial]ly - although it may perhaps be said that the need arising from an excess of ambiguity does determine the application of certain grammatical rules appropriate to each case.

    Our own "tutorial tête-à-tête" too in reply 479 is we suppose grammatically ambiguous in that it may be understood as either noun-adverb or adjective-noun. What we actually intended was adjective-noun, but here a disambiguation through grammatical clarification hardly changes the envisaged situation - which must in the end be the meaning of "meaning" must not it?

    Partridge gives us what is perhaps his lengthiest entry - eight pages - under the head "ambiguity," and refers often to a) Jevons and b) Empson with his "seven types"; but we prefer to turn to the limpid D.A. Cruse, who in his excellent "Lexical Semantics" distinguishes these four:

    1) Pure syntactic ambiguity:
    • old men and women [either (old men) and women, or old (men and women)]
    • French silk underwear [either (French silk) underwear, or French (silk underwear)]

    2) Quasi-syntactic ambiguity:
    • the cosmonaut entered the atmosphere again [either ([came to be] [in]) [again]], or [came to be] ([in] [again])]
    • a red pencil [either a pencil painted red, or a pencil which writes in red]

      3) Lexico-syntactic ambiguity:
      • We saw her duck
      • I saw the door open

        4) Pure lexical ambiguity:
        • He reached the bank
        • What is his position?

        Finally we list for the further information of interested Members Partridge's three remaining examples of the "misplaced only", besides Wittgenstein's:

        1) Shakespeare's "mistake":

            "The summer's flower is to the summer sweet
             Though to itself it only live and die."


        Correction: "Though only to itself it live and die" is presumably what Partridge meant although he does not precisely say so.

        2) Coleridge: "The wise only possess ideas; the greater part of mankind are possessed by them." Properly: "Only the wise." We are none too certain about his "are" either!

        3) Chesterton: "His black cloak looked as if it were only black by being too dense a purple. His black beard looked as if it were only black by being too deep a blue." Properly : "black only" of course.
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        time_is_now
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        « Reply #490 on: 14:30:17, 17-01-2008 »

          No grammatical rule is determined solely by the need to avoid ambiguity, and one ought to delight in ambiguity wherever it is found to be possible without breaking a grammatical rule.

          We are not quite sure what the Member means there, and frankly his "solely" sounds somewhat suspicious. Might we request an example?

          In the mean time Members may wish to consider the following familiar cases:
          • he was wearing new red socks and boots;
          • railmen defy union order to stop coal shipments;
          • he had better taste in films than girls;
          • I didn't go because it was my birthday;
          • I'll tell you when they arrive;
          • if the lady is agreeable;
          • fine old houses are demanding mistresses;
          • he gave her dog biscuits.

          The need for the disambiguation of all of these cases and indeed for the application of grammatical rules additional to the deficient ones that are used is both evident and pressing; nevertheless we seem to find ourselves somehow in agreement with the Member without knowing exactly what he means, because it is true that in no case may the need of the aforementioned supplementary applications be said to "determine grammatical rules," solely or even part[ial]ly - although it may perhaps be said that the need arising from an excess of ambiguity does determine the application of certain grammatical rules appropriate to each case.
          I'm not quite sure what I meant either - I was trying on the hoof to articulate something which I'd never put into words or heard anyone else put into words before - but it does seem to me that the disambiguation of those examples would be a matter not of grammar but of semantics. Indeed I beg to dissent from Mr Grew's ascription of deficient grammar to the examples given. Deficient grammar is neither necessary nor sufficient to make a statement ambiguous.

          I wasn't sure about that 'solely' either. Perhaps I just meant 'No grammatical rule is determined by the need to avoid ambiguity'.

          Meanwhile may I thank Mr Grew for having unintentionally enlightened me by revealing the HTML code for formatting a list.


          Could someone explain why, every time I edit this message, it acquires a '[ / list]' at the end which I did not type?[/list]
          « Last Edit: 18:03:49, 17-01-2008 by time_is_now » Logged

          The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
          increpatio
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          « Reply #491 on: 15:48:11, 17-01-2008 »

            Meanwhile may I thank Mr Grew for having unintentionally enlightened me by revealing the HTML code for formatting a list.[/list]

            • 1:  it's not HTML code, it's BBCode (translations between some BBCode tags and their (X)HTML equivalents found on the page link'd).
            • 2:  whatever about the code, I find aesthetically it hard to square the use of bulleted lists with his particular use of semicola in this situation.
            « Last Edit: 15:49:47, 17-01-2008 by increpatio » Logged

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            Sydney Grew
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            « Reply #492 on: 17:19:33, 17-01-2008 »

            I beg to dissent from Mr Grew's ascription of deficient grammar to the examples given. Deficient grammar is neither necessary nor sufficient to make a statement ambiguous.

            No doubt that is why we were careful not to say so.

            But what we did attempt to say is that a grammatical rule perfectly valid in itself which nevertheless in some particular case does permit undesired ambiguity to remain when the use of slightly different grammar would easily remove it and reveal the true and intended meaning is deficient as grammar - falls short of what we want - in that case. We mean simply something like replacing "He gave her dog biscuits" with "He gave biscuits to her dog."

            In regard to the B. B. Codes, this sort of thing seems to have potential does not it:

            Code:
            <?php Yes anything?(); ?>
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            increpatio
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            « Reply #493 on: 17:41:25, 17-01-2008 »

            In regard to the B. B. Codes, this sort of thing seems to have potential does not it:

            Code:
            <?php Yes anything?(); ?>
            *nods*
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            time_is_now
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            « Reply #494 on: 23:36:31, 17-01-2008 »

            I should put myself in this thread at least once, I suppose ...

            the penny finally clicked
            Erm, yes. Pennies don't click, do they, usually?

            As you were, tinners ... Roll Eyes
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            The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
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