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ahinton
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« Reply #90 on: 15:00:33, 14-08-2007 » |
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What really bugs me is people who go to " Ibitha". It's NOT "Ibitha" it's Ibi za! There is no word in the English language where z is pronounced th. If you're English call it Ibi za and stop being so bloody pretentious  It's a matter of personal preference, surely. Why is 'i-bi-tha' any worse than 'ma-yor-ka'? "Tourists, dear boy; tourists" (as the late Harold Macmillan might almost have said). Strictly speaking (as far as I know), Majorca would likely be pronounced "Mazhorca" in the area, since the "j" which is an aspirate in Castilian (as in Jose) is usually a soft "j" in Catalan (as it would be in French - and Catalan is, after all, supposed to have derived in part from ancient Provençal) - so, "Hozay" in Castilian and "Zhosep" in Catalan for Joseph. Best, Alistair |
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George Garnett
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« Reply #91 on: 15:12:41, 14-08-2007 » |
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Doesn't that get confusing? e.g. "I'd like to go to autoharp, please, driver."
Some impressive pedantry goin' down here, dudes. It's not much use though to those of us who came in here to have our feet dealt with  . |
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David_Underdown
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« Reply #92 on: 15:16:47, 14-08-2007 » |
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And Barcelona rather than [BV]arrthelona.
The locals would probably prefer you didn't lithp anyway, that being a Castilian thing, and not Catalan at all. ... although since Barcelona is the city's Castilian name it would seem reasonable to pronounce it in accordance with Ollie's ingenious notation. And I say that as one to whom the [th] comes very unnaturally, since my Spanish is mostly Mexican in origin. So far as I'm aware the name is spelt the same in both Catalan and Castilian (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barcelona, gives different IPA, but no alternative spellings). Maybe I should have said '... since Barcelona is also the city's Castilian name' (I didn't mean to imply that it was spelt differently in Catalan). But you're not seriously going to tell me that no one speaks Spanish in Barcelona. Most (all?) Catalans also speak Castilian, but many would prefer not to. Catalunya suffered under Franco, who largely imposed Castilian on them and tried to downplay the differences between Spain's regions. Catalan has undergone quite a resurgence in the past few years. |
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David
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #93 on: 15:23:05, 14-08-2007 » |
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And where will you all put the stress in 'Newcastle'?
'NOOcastle', though 'tOOn' is also aceptable. (Disclaimer: I am not a Geordie by birth.) NEWcassle. Not on Tyne.  |
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time_is_now
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« Reply #94 on: 15:40:57, 14-08-2007 » |
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It's a matter of personal preference, surely. Why is 'i-bi-tha' any worse than 'ma-yor-ka'?
"Tourists, dear boy; tourists" (as the late Harold Macmillan might almost have said). Strictly speaking (as far as I know), Majorca would likely be pronounced "Mazhorca" in the area, since the "j" which is an aspirate in Castilian (as in Jose) is usually a soft "j" in Catalan (as it would be in French - and Catalan is, after all, supposed to have derived in part from ancient Provençal) - so, "Hozay" in Castilian and "Zhosep" in Catalan for Joseph. Let's get this straight. 'Majorca' is a purely English spelling. In both Spanish and Catalan the spelling is 'Mallorca'. I don't know how 'll' is pronounced in Catalan, but I think one could leave that out of the discussion and explain the English spelling (and pronunciation) as a result of regional variations in Spanish. The real issue is the 'll'. In Castilian (i.e. mainland) Spanish this is pronounced something like an English 'y', with a slight 'l' flavour to it (what it is really is an 'l' pronounced by pushing the middle of the tongue up towards the front of the palate rather than by touching the tip of the tongue on the alveolar ridge behind your front teeth). In various parts of Latin America the Spanish 'll' sound is much stronger and more consonantal. In Mexico, for example, it sounds much more like an English 'j'. BUT so does the letter 'y'. So the 'll' sound in 'llama' and the 'y' sound in 'yo' are pretty much identical. In Argentina they're also identical, although there they both sound more like the English 'sh'. The upshot of all of which is that I asuume the 'j' in the English spelling of 'Majorca' is an attempt to represent the Spanish 'll' sound, which depending what sort of Spanish you speak may sound more like an English 'j' or an English 'y'. I don't think it has anything to do with the Spanish 'j' as in 'José', which is indeed an aspirate in all forms of Spanish that I know (although I'm sure you're right that it's more of a 'zh' sound in Catalan, as in French). |
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
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ahinton
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« Reply #95 on: 16:27:17, 14-08-2007 » |
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Most (all?) Catalans also speak Castilian,
True. but many would prefer not to.
Only in the sense, I think, that they usually choose to speak Castilian only to foreigners who do not happen to speak Catalan; they almost always speak Catalan among themsleves. Catalunya suffered under Franco,
Didn't it just! who largely imposed Castilian on them and tried to downplay the differences between Spain's regions. Catalan has undergone quite a resurgence in the past few years.
In point of fact Franco did worse than that; it was made a prosecutable offence to speak Catalan in public for at least part of the time that he was in power. What is rather strange (to me, at least) is that, once the Franco régime finally collapsed in the mid-1970s, there was no knee-jerk reaction against the use of Castilian in Catalunya as one might have expected in such circumstances and, for many years until relatively recently, Castilian was always the first foreign language taught in Spanish Catalan schools; this is now gradually being replaced, not by French (as one might expect, given France's proximity) but English. It should also be remembered, of course, that part of Catalunya is in France anyway. The most notable difference in French Catalunya, however (that's to say the extreme south west of France) is that during the time when the Spanish Catalans continued to prioritise the teaching of Castilian as the first foreign language and Spanish Catalans almost all spoke Castilian as well as Catalan, the French Catalans spoke French almost exclusively among themselves as their principal language; this remains largely true today, although there are the beginnings of a resurgence of Catalan around Perpignan (or Perpinyà, as the Catalans have it). An interesting remark that I have heard more than once about the Catalans and independence - and which I think is probably largely true - is that, whereas the Basques make a lot of sound and fury about independence, the Catalans just quietly go about their dia-to-dia (that sounds almost Geordie!) business knowing that they are already independent. Another rather interesting fact is that there remains a strong Catalan-speaking tradition in parts of southern Sardinia (or Sardegna, if you prefer) which, of course, belongs to Italy... Best, Alistair |
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ahinton
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« Reply #96 on: 16:39:27, 14-08-2007 » |
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It's a matter of personal preference, surely. Why is 'i-bi-tha' any worse than 'ma-yor-ka'?
"Tourists, dear boy; tourists" (as the late Harold Macmillan might almost have said). Strictly speaking (as far as I know), Majorca would likely be pronounced "Mazhorca" in the area, since the "j" which is an aspirate in Castilian (as in Jose) is usually a soft "j" in Catalan (as it would be in French - and Catalan is, after all, supposed to have derived in part from ancient Provençal) - so, "Hozay" in Castilian and "Zhosep" in Catalan for Joseph. Let's get this straight. 'Majorca' is a purely English spelling. Of course it is and I apologise for lack of clarity in what I wrote, which was not so much pedantic as plain careless; I had meant to write "Strictly speaking (as fas as I know), Majorca would likely be pronounced "Mazhorca" in the area, if the "j" were in its Catalan spelling and prounounced accordingly." That would have avoided confusion. Sorry! In both Spanish and Catalan the spelling is 'Mallorca'. I don't know how 'll' is pronounced in Catalan, but I think one could leave that out of the discussion and explain the English spelling (and pronunciation) as a result of regional variations in Spanish.
The real issue is the 'll'. In Castilian (i.e. mainland) Spanish this is pronounced something like an English 'y', with a slight 'l' flavour to it (what it is really is an 'l' pronounced by pushing the middle of the tongue up towards the front of the palate rather than by touching the tip of the tongue on the alveolar ridge behind your front teeth). In various parts of Latin America the Spanish 'll' sound is much stronger and more consonantal. In Mexico, for example, it sounds much more like an English 'j'. BUT so does the letter 'y'. So the 'll' sound in 'llama' and the 'y' sound in 'yo' are pretty much identical. In Argentina they're also identical, although there they both sound more like the English 'sh'.
The upshot of all of which is that I asuume the 'j' in the English spelling of 'Majorca' is an attempt to represent the Spanish 'll' sound, which depending what sort of Spanish you speak may sound more like an English 'j' or an English 'y'. I don't think it has anything to do with the Spanish 'j' as in 'José', which is indeed an aspirate in all forms of Spanish that I know (although I'm sure you're right that it's more of a 'zh' sound in Catalan, as in French).
The Catalan "ll" and the Castilian "ll" are pronounced more or less tha same way (suject to region) and your suggestion of something akin to "ly" is about right, though there's no precise equivalent. The "j" in the English spelling of "Majorca" is, I imagine, for pretty much the reasons that you suggest and it's not so very far from correct. Had its English spelling been a straight adoption of the Catalan/Castilian one, you'd likely have had the English calling it "Malorca" and our esteemed Richard Barrett and his countryfolk pronouncing it as only they canfairpwllgwynetc. - which would doubtless have caused immense confusion among the natives as soon as Welsh tourists started to visit the island. I wonder how Chopin pronounced it? Best, Alistair |
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Kittybriton
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« Reply #97 on: 19:24:36, 14-08-2007 » |
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Some impressive pedantry goin' down here, dudes.
Am I to assume that dudes includes dudettes? It's not much use though to those of us who came in here to have our feet dealt with . Sorry about that GG. Things get a little confused sometimes when the nits hit the grits. How are your corns? |
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Click me -> About meor me -> my handmade storeNo, I'm not a complete idiot. I'm only a halfwit. In fact I'm actually a catfish. |
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #98 on: 19:30:17, 14-08-2007 » |
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So I am to take it, then, that perhaps even some of our number who prefer Marseilles to Marseille, Hanover to Hannover and Basle to Basel may well prefer Catalunya to Catalonia? (I'm afraid that since I know my Orwell so much better than my Barcelona I'm likely to stick in English to the English form of that one...)
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richard barrett
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« Reply #99 on: 20:55:43, 14-08-2007 » |
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Am I to assume that dudes includes dudettes? I didn't think "dude" always had to be gender-specific, but if I'm mistaken about this, yes, sorry, I did mean she-dudes as well. |
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aaron cassidy
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« Reply #100 on: 21:50:08, 14-08-2007 » |
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Am I to assume that dudes includes dudettes? I didn't think "dude" always had to be gender-specific, but if I'm mistaken about this, yes, sorry, I did mean she-dudes as well. "Dude" is indeed gender-specific. And, ugh, "dudette" is indeed the, um, "feminine" form of the term, though it's entirely invented. It would be like finding a masculine equivalent for "chick" (or "bird," as you lot would say) ... doesn't actually exist, but surely one could invent some sort of male equivalent? |
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increpatio
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« Reply #101 on: 21:52:44, 14-08-2007 » |
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Am I to assume that dudes includes dudettes? I didn't think "dude" always had to be gender-specific, but if I'm mistaken about this, yes, sorry, I did mean she-dudes as well. "Dude" is indeed gender-specific. And, ugh, "dudette" is indeed the, um, "feminine" form of the term, though it's entirely invented. It would be like finding a masculine equivalent for "chick" (or "bird," as you lot would say) ... doesn't actually exist, but surely one could invent some sort of male equivalent? It seems easier to feminize words in english than to masculinize them. I use dude in the gender-neutral sense myself. The only example I can think of off the top of my head is "himbo". |
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« Last Edit: 21:54:43, 14-08-2007 by increpatio »
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Evan Johnson
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« Reply #102 on: 21:52:59, 14-08-2007 » |
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Am I to assume that dudes includes dudettes? I didn't think "dude" always had to be gender-specific, but if I'm mistaken about this, yes, sorry, I did mean she-dudes as well. "Dude" is indeed gender-specific. And, ugh, "dudette" is indeed the, um, "feminine" form of the term, though it's entirely invented. It would be like finding a masculine equivalent for "chick" (or "bird," as you lot would say) ... doesn't actually exist, but surely one could invent some sort of male equivalent? Jesus, Aaron, don't you have better things to do?  |
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Chafing Dish
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« Reply #103 on: 21:54:00, 14-08-2007 » |
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Jesusette, Evan....
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #104 on: 21:57:06, 14-08-2007 » |
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"Dude" is indeed gender-specific. And, ugh, "dudette" is indeed the, um, "feminine" form of the term, though it's entirely invented. It would be like finding a masculine equivalent for "chick" (or "bird," as you lot would say) ... doesn't actually exist, but surely one could invent some sort of male equivalent?
How about 'chicker' or 'chickhead' or 'chicknuts' or something like that? (the relative numbers of derogatory or offensive terms for members of either sex might be something worth bearing in mind) |
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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