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The Radio 3 Boards > General Chat > The Coffee Bar > St George's Day
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Author Topic: St George's Day  (Read 1445 times)
Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #60 on: 22:52:46, 25-04-2008 »
The same George who interacted with Diocletian, or a different one?

http://www.pravoslavieto.com/life/04.23_sv_Georgi_Pobedonosec.htm
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-  Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
Don Basilio
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« Reply #61 on: 22:58:15, 25-04-2008 »
Coo, thanks for that, reiner, but I am unable to read Cyrillic script let alone Russian, or Old Church Slavonic.

(That well known ecclesiastical menace, the late Bishop of Kracow and Rome, declared St Cyril and his bro St Methodius patrons of Europe, together with more saintly individuals than any one continent needs.  Santo Subito.  Hum.  The Pope ought to be an Italian just as the leader of the Conservative Party ought to be an Old Etonian.  Anyone else will take it all far too seriously.)
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To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven.
A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
Don Basilio
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« Reply #62 on: 23:23:26, 25-04-2008 »
A truly Orthodox view of England's patron saint

http://www.goarch.org/en/chapel/saints.asp?contentid=29&lang=EN

Cultivated by God, you became manifest as an honorable tiller gathering for yourself the sheaves of virtue. For you sowed with tears but reaped with gladness; in the contest you competed with your blood and came away with Christ. By your intercessions, O Holy One, all are granted forgiveness of sins.

This refers not to dragons and princesses, but to the name of George being the Greek word for "farmer"
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To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven.
A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #63 on: 23:23:43, 25-04-2008 »
Just for the record, I went to the Russian interface of Wikipedia, typed in "Svyatoi Georgii" ("St George") and it spins-up this enormous list of St Georges and Holy Martyrs:

http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Святой_Георгий

They are arranged broadly by category - the top eight have the title of "Saint", the others are all Holy Prophets, Holy Martyrs, Disciples, and other ranks of Holiness (according to the canons of the Russian Orthodox Church currently).

I haven't got time to decode them all, but here are the top 8 who have Saintly status (and are all discrete and separate individual St Georges, each with a separate life-story and saint's-day):

Георгий Победоносец — христианский святой, великомученик
George the Holder Of Victory - Christian saint, Great Holy Martyr  <----  this is the Anatolian one

Святой великий князь Георгий (Юрий) Всеволодович Владимирский (сын Всеволода Большое Гнездо)
Saintly Grand-Prince George Of The Great Nest Of St Vladimir (son of Vsevolod Great-Nest)

Святой князь Георгий Владимирский
Saint George Vladimirsky, Prince.

Святой великий князь Игорь (в крещении Георгий, в иночестве Гавриил) Ольгович, Черниговский и Киевский
Saintly Grand-Prince Igor' (who took the name George on his baptism, whom they called Gabriel) of Olgovich, Chernigov and Kiev.

Святой князь Мстислав (в крещении Георгий) Храбрый, Новгородский
Saintly Grand-Prince Mstislav (baptised as George) The Bold Of Novgorod.

Святой Георгий I Константинопольский, патриарх
Saint George I Of Constantinople, Archbishop

Святой Георгий II, епископ Митиленский
Saint George II, Archbishop of Mitilen

Святой Георгий, епископ Амастридский
Saint George, Archbishop of Amastrida

Amid the further 32 George-named martyrs, etc there are several more titled as full Saints (ie with a record of miracles attested to their names):

Святой Георгий Шенкурский
St George Shenkursky

вятой Георгий, день памяти — 26 (13 ст. ст.) апреля
St George, with a Name-Day on 26th April (which differs from the other St Georges so far mentioned)

Святой Георгий, день памяти — 10 февраля (28 января ст. ст.)
St George, celebrated on 10th February (another new and different George)

Святой Георгий, день памяти (брат преподобного Симеона, Нового Столпника) — 10 мая (27 апреля ст. ст.)
St George, brother of Holy Father Simeon, celebrated on 10th May

Святой Георгий, епископ Никомедийский, творец канонов, день памяти — 11 января (29 декабря)
St George, Archbishop of Nikomedia, Author Of Canons, celebrated on 11th Jan

So there are, ehem, rather a lot of Saint Georges and Holy Georges in the Russian Orthodox Church Wink
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
-  Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
Don Basilio
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« Reply #64 on: 23:26:47, 25-04-2008 »
Thank you, reiner, for that. But at the present moment all good Orthodox in the Western European time zone will be following the epitaphion round the streets,for Great Friday.

I suspect the others you list are named after the Great Martyr himself.
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To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven.
A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #65 on: 23:33:23, 25-04-2008 »
Quote from: Don Basilio on 23:26:47, 25-04-2008
I suspect the others you list are named after the Great Martyr himself.

I'm sure you're not wrong there Smiley 
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
-  Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
time_is_now
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« Reply #66 on: 16:42:28, 27-04-2008 »
Quote from: richard barrett on 10:02:36, 24-04-2008
Quote from: IgnorantRockFan on 09:54:03, 24-04-2008
Jesus wasn't particularly English either

... not with a Mexican name like that...

(I'll get my poncho)
I've never met a Mexican called Jesús, although I've come across a fair few Spanish boys with that name. Otherwise, I would have thought the most likely place to find that name is Brazil.

Spanish for George is 'Jorge', pronounced 'chor-che'. I didn't know what the Portuguese version of the name was until very recently: it's spelt the same as in Spanish, but pronounced more like the French 'Georges' [thank you Ollie for sparing my blushes].
« Last Edit: 20:28:35, 28-04-2008 by time_is_now » Logged
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brassbandmaestro
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« Reply #67 on: 20:13:15, 28-04-2008 »
I dont think he was even remotely English was he, like St Patrick and St Andrew??
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Don Basilio
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« Reply #68 on: 20:52:08, 28-04-2008 »
Patrick came from Great Britain, although don't go mentioning that in a bar in the back streets of Cork on 17th March, and Andrew was Palestinian and Jewish.  Patrick worked in Ireland and is buried at Downpatrick in an unknown location.  Reputed relics of Andrew were enshrined near the famous golf course, ancient university and Castle Dough.

There were no relics of George in England.  Indeed at Aleppo in Syria I have seen a supposed tomb of George a the citadel, drapped in a green cloth, the customary Muslim colour.

He is a very popular saint among the Orthodox, who call him the Great Martyr.  According to the Oxford Book of Saints he was a patron of Catalonia, Venice and Portugal.  I can find no evidence of current Vatican approval, but that may have been the case once.

A thoroughly international saint to mark our essential membership of Europe.
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To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven.
A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
Antheil
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« Reply #69 on: 21:01:52, 28-04-2008 »
Quote from: brassbandmaestro on 20:13:15, 28-04-2008
I dont think he was even remotely English was he, like St Patrick and St Andrew??

Indeed BBM.  St. Patrick was Romano-British but captured by Irish Pirates at the age of 6 (how terribly exciting that must have been we think) and after being a slave for 6 years he escaped back to Blighty but then went back to Ireland and lived there and was Holy and banished all snakes and was a Good Bloke.

St. Andrew was of course born in Galilee and was the brother of St. Peter.  Any fule kno that.  How he landed up at Scotland's Patron perhaps Ron might know?

St. David was of course Welsh, son of Saint Non, and a Prince of Ceredigion.  The only British Patron Saint who was a true Briton who also went on a Pilgrimage to Jerusalem and Rome.  Not an easy feat in those days.

Edit, sorry, crossed with Don Basilio posting
« Last Edit: 21:05:47, 28-04-2008 by Antheil the Termite Lover » Logged
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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #70 on: 21:17:02, 28-04-2008 »
St Alban seems to fit the bill rather well for a British Saint, yet he isn't a patron Saint?   Yet again the British penchant for appointing glitzy foreigners (Saints, Opera-Singers, Monarchs etc) over the local team comes into play.

St Alban was converted (according to the notoriously unreliable Geoffrey of Monmouth) by Saint Amphibalus - who, despite his name, is never known to have walked on water.
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
-  Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
David_Underdown
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« Reply #71 on: 21:24:07, 28-04-2008 »
Edmund the Martyr (as in Bury St Edmunds) was patron pre-George (and according to some ridiculous arguments still is really), and Edward the Confessor also had some sort of status as a Royal patron before George usurped everyone.  Alban is the British proto-martyr, which gives him some status too.
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Antheil
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« Reply #72 on: 21:31:41, 28-04-2008 »
Edward the Confessor was the Patron Saint (and still is of the Royal Family) before George was adopted.  Prior to that it was Edmund the Martyr.

St. Alban, martyred round about 304 AD, I think,  his name was known about the year 580 to Venantius Fortunatus, in Southern Gaul, who commemorates him in the line:

Albanum egregium fecunda Britannia profert.

My personal Saint is Sainte Therese de l'Enfant Jesus, which spookily enough is shared by another MessageBoarder!  How often does that happen?
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brassbandmaestro
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« Reply #73 on: 06:24:37, 29-04-2008 »
 Mine has to be St Cecilia!!(I wonder why Huh). Or could be St benedict as i go to Worth Abbey.
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IgnorantRockFan
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« Reply #74 on: 09:46:18, 29-04-2008 »
As soon as you look for English replacements for George, you run into all sorts of parocial rivalries. Somebody will suggest Edmund the Martyr, somebody else Alban, I would personally argue for Cuthbert... everybody's got their local claim on the title of "England's best saint".

That's why George works so well -- he's not English, so there are no local politics/preferences involved in the decision. No particular local interest is being favoured over any other.

You know it makes sense  Wink
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