Yes, I've had time to scrutinise P-W's link now and they're obviously nothing like the Pentecostals.  I can't be doing with all that collapsing all over the place and dancing about yelling gibberish, although I accept that works for some people and they find it beneficial.

Pacifism and my personality don't really gel.  I'd love to be a pacifist but I just couldn't stand there and let someone hit me (turn the other cheek) or stand by and watch someone being abused.  Nor could I just sit doing nothing if there was a hostile invasion of this country.  I don't agree with war and hated that we went into Iraq, but what would have happened to us if we hadn't fought back in WW2?  In an ideal world, I am a pacifist to the core, but this isn't an ideal world.  There were many conscientious objectors of course and that takes more than the usual amount of courage - Tippett for one?  Britten?  Many famous people.

It's all very confusing. 

I remember a few hundred years ago I taught the violin to  2 little girls who were Quakers and lived at the Meeting House as their father was the sort of caretaker I think. The whole atmosphere of the place was lovely, after a day's teaching it was a haven to go there.
I went to a couple of meetings at their request and it was extremely calming and I certainly felt it was a wonderful way to build a community of love and to communicate with the God they believe in. I came away calm.

A

Milly, it is - but more than beautiful, it's just so 'mature'! I do recommend it to anyone. But be prepared - PW was right: sometimes, not one word is said during a Meeting. More often, only two or three people say something, and even then not at any length. What's remarkable is that the silence is never in the least bit 'embarrassing', just contemplative and peaceful.

The one quaker meeting I have been to was at a rather distressing time for me, but was not particularly a turning point.  I have absolutely no problem with being silent for a prolonged period.  I have been to many all silent weekend retreats in my time, and it would be good for me to do so again.  The silence at the quaker meeting was no problem at all.  It was when the Spirit moved a couple of people to speak badly constructed Guardian comment columns that I could have done with more silence.

I met a quaker woman years ago who told me that they are meant to resist as much as possible any urge to speak.  They will know they are meant to speak because they quake as they try to resist the Spirit.

This is the complete opposite of pentecostal prayer or the evangelical unhealthy emphasis on extempore prayer, where fluid extempore prayer is regarded as a sign of the Spirit, rather than a prima donna expressing herself.  I suspect much extempore prayer is just cliches without a book.  ("Dear father God, we just really want to thank you."  That is a bit unfair of me.)


Because Quakers have no ministers or priests there is far more responsibility on the members.  Although they are free of dogma and hierarchy, they are tough in the matter of commitment.

Shakers, now that's a whole different thing.  'Tis a gift to be simple.  I would be only too happy to share my fascination with the only Christian derived body in which leadership was equally shared between men and women.  As a result they completely rejected any sexual relations.  O and they were founded by a working class woman in Manchester after her intense religious experiences in Manchester jail.

And they danced in worship.  (Possibly to make up for lack of physical expression elsewhere.)



Their furniture is some of the most expensive American antique stuff.



But this is not the thread to do so.

If you know Copeland's Appalachian Spring the big melody is a Shaker tune and very beautiful too -

'Tis a gift to be simple,
'tis gift to be free,
'tis a gift to come down where we ought to be.
And when we find ourselves in the place just right
'Twill be in the vallley of love and delight.

Each to their own as you say.

But it seems to me that if a service is concert, then in the Methodist model, the congregation are the audience, in the catholic model, the congregation are the orchestra.

You appear to have attended RC churches with a considerably higher standard of ritual than I usually come across.

We certainly sing lots of hymns, and listen to a sermon (35 minutes once).  Many sermons are inspiring, but they can be vacuous platitudes, in which case it is just as well it is not regarded as the climax of the event.

Synagogues chant nearly everything, so that may well have  been what Jesus and his earliest followers were used to.

That would make sense.  Although I do not want to add anything to what I've said.