I wouldn't say it was tough.  Just me making it so.  I'm beyond hope I think.  If I read the atheists, I swing totally the other way and become very religious.  If I read the believers, the left brain kicks in and I become sceptical.  Sometimes I have an absolute craving to go to church and really look forward to it and then when I get there, I listen and think "what a load of rubbish". Then if I haven't gone for a long while, I start hankering again.  I'm just a complete mess really! 

Milly

When I was young I was desperate to believe in God - to be sure life was worth living, as it were and I read lots of evidence.  I now see I was going the wrong way about it: God is not a thing to be proved at all.  The best proof as it were is lives lived as though in response to God.  One recent book you may like to try is What the Bible really teaches: a challenge for fundamentalists by Keith Ward, published 2004 by SPCK.  It's less than 200 pages.  It is defending Christianity against the challenge from the other side than Dawkins, ie biblical literalism, but you might find it worthwhile.

My comment to A is that having attended Methodist services I was struck by how little the congregation did.  Apart from far too many hymns to my mind, they just sat listening to others, usually the minister.  Roman Catholics usually shock me a bit by their off-hand manner, but a large congregation attending mass are completely un-selfconsious.

I don't recall ever attending a Methodist service but I have attended Low Church (Anglican) services and been disappointed at the lack of involvement of the congregation.  To me, a High Anglican Church, the rumble of the organ, the frisson when the Sanctus Bells sound, the Servants of the Sanctuary, the incense, the bringing around of the Bible to be venerated, more incense, the choir, Stations of the Cross, I just love it.

And that makes me think that I go to Church (infrequently) for all the wrong reasons.  Because I love the spectacle, the robes, the venerations, the fantastic music and the theatricality of it which maybe gets in the way of the spirituality.  I would be interested in what Don Basilio thinks.

Well people are different and I don't want to offend anyone.  I am not a great one for cathedral worship with perfect music and architecture and all, although I know it speaks to many and I am glad it goes on.

As I have hinted or said in the past I am at home in back streets Anglo Catholic churches (as long as they don't object to women priests.)  The glory and the wonder and the beauty go together with the mundane, the trivial and the silly.  Indeed because what is happening is in the middle of the mundane, the trivial and the silly it is all the more moving.

The idea that money spent on lights, vestments, incense etc should be given to the poor won't really wash.  That sort of worship is available for the poor and anyone else to enjoy.  It can be enriching the lives of the poor, if anything.  The vast number of RC parishes in England were founded for Irish navies brought over to build the railways: they were often built with the pennies of the poor who then had something splendid to see as their own.

The success of Wesleyan Methodism in the C19 no doubt to do with people finding a place of their own free of the Anglican ruling class, I am sorry to say.  But the simple Chapel in the Valley religion mentioned often goes with strict personal morality, a fundamentalist reading of the Bible, a specific and misleading view of the meaning of Christ's death (he was being punished instead of us) and authoratarian leadership.  Black majority churches may have these characteristics to this day.

If you want a church free of both fundamentalism, clergy and anything like ritual, then there are the Quakers, bless them.  But they require a definite discipline from their members.

Perhaps when I said involvement by people in Methodist services I didn't quite make myself clear....

In RC services , and Anglican too I suppose, you have to know what to do. You stand here, chant here, answer here, get covered in incense, turn this way, kneel, and hear people sing instead of speak the words they are communicating... not to me a natural event at all.
In Methodist churches you walk in, sit down, sing some hymns ( surely that's good isn't it??) listen to prayers spoken , listen to readings and psalms spoken so they make sense , say the Lord's Prayer and listen to a minister say some words hopefully worth listening to.

To me, I participate in that more than the sit/stand/turn/response sort of service. I do speak as a one time Evangelist  I was 'dead' keen I assure you but I was put off by one rather silly (I suppose) thing I was told.

But... each to his/her own!

A

There's no argument here and no criticism implied.  I think it's very interesting to read the points of view of other people.  That's the way to make a well-rounded decision of your own accord.

I'd still like to have a look at the Quakers.  Are there any on here?  They've never been well-supported seemingly or perhaps that should be well-advertised.  I'll google them and see what I can find.  There have been some famous ones I know - like Kellogg the cereal man for a start.  I shall have a browse.

Is she? 

Well I've just googled it and it might do me the world of good to attend a meeting or two.  They're total pacifists and seemingly very calm and quiet.  I don't think they'd take my rather draconian views on board very well though, I'd have to keep very quiet indeed. 

Thank you P-W.   I'm very impressed.  Here are some famous ones I've just googled.

Film and Television:
- David Lean - film director (Lawrence of Arabia; The Bridge On the River Kwai; Doctor Zhivago)
- James Dean - American actor; pop icon
- Jack Larson - actor best known for playing Superman's pal "Jimmy Olsen" in the 1950s Adventures of Superman TV series
- Judi Dench - British actress (Academy Award for Shakespeare in Love; nominations for Iris; Chocolat; Mrs. Brown); "M" in James Bond movies since 1995
- Ben Kingsley - actor, received Best Actor Academy Award for Gandhi (1982)
- Paul Eddington (1927-1995) - British film and television actor ("The Good Life", "Yes, Prime Minister", etc.)
- Don Porter - actor; starred as "Prof. Russell Lawrence" on "Gidget" TV series (1965-1966); films include "The Candidate" (1972), "Mame"

Music:
- Tom Robinson - musician
- Bonnie Raitt - popular singer, guitarist, songwriter - blues, rock, etc. (raised as a Quaker)
- Joan Baez - singer and activist (lapsed)
- David Byrne - singer, composer

Other Entertainers:
- Annie Oakley - entertainer in Wild West shows
- Chuck Knipp - comedian known for "Shirley Q. Liquor"
- John Raitt - Broadway star; father of Bonnie Raitt
- Edward R. Murrow - famous news broadcaster

Literature:
- James Fennimore Cooper - writer famous for adventure stories in early America
- Walt Whitman - American poet (Leaves of Grass, etc.), humanist
- James Michener - novelist (lapsed)
- Charles Brockden Brown - first professional American novelist
- Olaf Stapledon - influential early science fiction writer and philosopher; author of First and Last Man
- Gael Baudino - fantasy novelist (series include: Dragonsword; Strands of Starlight; Water!)
- John Greenleaf Whittier - poet, abolitionist, know as "the Quaker Poet"
- Christopher Morley - author
- Jorge Luis Borges - poet, essayist
- Jessamyn West - novelist; Friendly Persuasion, etc.
- A. S. Byatt - novelist, won Booker Prize for Possession (1990)
- Margaret Drabble - novelist
- Piers Anthony - best-selling fantasy author (raised in a devout Quaker family, but is not an official church member)

Art:
- Benjamin West - (1738-1820) American historical painter who worked in England; known for portraits and scenes
- Cassius Coolidge - painter known for his paintings of dogs playing poker
- Edward Hicks - famous folk/primitive painter

There are many more listed in various professions, military, political etc.

Moved by Spirit, you say P-W?  Not like the Pentecostals I hope - all that speaking in tongues and throwing yourself around the room?