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The Radio 3 Boards > General Chat > The Coffee Bar > A small grammatical point - possessives in English
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Author Topic: A small grammatical point - possessives in English  (Read 308 times)
Don Basilio
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Era solo un mio sospetto
« on: 16:37:18, 23-08-2008 »
The possessive (or genitive as I still think of it) form of English single words is formed by adding as apostrophe S.  The dog's dinner.

For plural words, you add an apostrophe to the spelling, but it is pronounced the same as the plain plural.  The dogs' dinner.

But supposing the singular word ends in S in the first place?  Would it be The princess' tiara OR The princess's tiara?  I bet in speech most would use the form "The princesses tiara" however it might be spelled.

Any comments?
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HtoHe
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« Reply #1 on: 16:46:36, 23-08-2008 »
Quote from: Don Basilio on 16:37:18, 23-08-2008
The possessive (or genitive as I still think of it) form of English single words is formed by adding as apostrophe S.  The dog's dinner.

For plural words, you add an apostrophe to the spelling, but it is pronounced the same as the plain plural.  The dogs' dinner.

But supposing the singular word ends in S in the first place?  Would it be The princess' tiara OR The princess's tiara?  I bet in speech most would use the form "The princesses tiara" however it might be spelled.

Any comments?

Afaik, Don B, the unfollowed apostrophe is only used for plural possessives.  So in your example it would be the princess's tiara but a tiara shared by several princesses would be the princesses' tiara.

I am, of course, open to correction.
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Antheil
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« Reply #2 on: 16:50:35, 23-08-2008 »
Don,

The dreaded apostrophe as beloved by greengrocers!  i.e.  Caulie's 49p

When I have to refer to Mr. Jones' cattle it is a singular s not a plural with an apostrophe (i.e. Mr. Jones's cattle)

That is what we were taught at the seminary.  Be concise and do not waste punctuation marks unncessarily or you risk a a Novena before bedtime  Cheesy

Sorry, did not see the plural question.  If there were more than one Mr. Jones, it would be Messrs. Joneses cattle.  I think
« Last Edit: 16:54:18, 23-08-2008 by Antheil » Logged
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martle
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« Reply #3 on: 17:10:52, 23-08-2008 »
Wiki seems fairly solid on the matter:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostrophe
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HtoHe
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« Reply #4 on: 17:31:49, 23-08-2008 »
Quote from: Antheil on 16:50:35, 23-08-2008
Don,

The dreaded apostrophe as beloved by greengrocers!  i.e.  Caulie's 49p

When I have to refer to Mr. Jones' cattle it is a singular s not a plural with an apostrophe (i.e. Mr. Jones's cattle)

That is what we were taught at the seminary.  Be concise and do not waste punctuation marks unncessarily or you risk a a Novena before bedtime  Cheesy

Sorry, did not see the plural question.  If there were more than one Mr. Jones, it would be Messrs. Joneses cattle.  I think

These things change, Anty, but according to Lynne Truss - who has multiple reasons for being interested as she's both a punctuation freak and a person with a surname ending in s -  the fashion with regard to modern names is that a final s should be followed by 's eg Keats's poems, Philippa Jones's book; but with names from the ancient world it's different eg Achilles' heel .  As this is English there are, of course, exceptions as well.  Apparently anything ending in an 'iz' sound doesn't need an extra s - eg Frank Bridges' music .

I seem to remember, too, that the greengrocer's apostrophe is not without its champions - at least as far as produce ending in vowel sounds is concerned.  banana's, for example, is a much better reproduction of the sound of the word than bananas - which looks like it ought to rhyme with the French for pineapple.

Finally, if I may be excused taking the discussion off at a tangent: Don B's mention of inflections on princess reminded me of something that has always puzzled me: why is Salome, for example, a Prinzessin?  Why not just a Prinzin? or a Prinzess?  Can any fluent German speakers shed any light?  Apparently it is quite a normal German word but it seems a unique construction: Fürst gives us Fürstin, Graf gives us Gräfin, Herzog gives us Herzogin etc, etc.  Why the extra element for Prinz? 
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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #5 on: 17:43:48, 23-08-2008 »
Quote from: HtoHe on 17:31:49, 23-08-2008
the fashion with regard to modern names is that a final s should be followed by 's eg Keats's poems, Philippa Jones's book; but with names from the ancient world it's different eg Achilles' heel .  As this is English there are, of course, exceptions as well.  Apparently anything ending in an 'iz' sound doesn't need an extra s - eg Frank Bridges' music . 


It is, though, as you say, a fashion - it hasn't always been punctuated this way Wink  There is more than one view of this, and I don't think Truss is always the best (her advice in cases in which both the possessor and the possessed items are plural is actually wrong, I would say).   There is some sound advice on h2g2:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A790175
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HtoHe
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« Reply #6 on: 18:00:14, 23-08-2008 »
Quote from: Reiner Torheit on 17:43:48, 23-08-2008
It is, though, as you say, a fashion - it hasn't always been punctuated this way Wink 

Agreed.  And, to be fair, I should mention that Ms Truss herself points this out.  The case of the greengrocer's apostrophe is, perhaps, more interesting.  We put an extra letter in potatoes and tomatoes - presumably to preserve the connection between spelling and pronunciation; but we don't seem to have extended this to avocados, pimentos etc, which are frequently seen with an apostrophe.  I'm pretty sure I've seen displays of banana's and avocado's side by side with carrots and onions.
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Mary Chambers
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« Reply #7 on: 18:44:18, 23-08-2008 »
Quote from: HtoHe on 17:31:49, 23-08-2008
Apparently anything ending in an 'iz' sound doesn't need an extra s - eg Frank Bridges' music .



Except that he was a singular Bridge, so it's Frank Bridge's music.

A better example would be Robert Bridges' poems.
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Sydney Grew
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« Reply #8 on: 19:22:06, 23-08-2008 »
Here a couple of tougher examples for the brighter Members to chew over:

1) for convenience' sake

2) Dumas's stories (pronounced Dumahz)
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HtoHe
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« Reply #9 on: 19:37:43, 23-08-2008 »
Quote from: Mary Chambers on 18:44:18, 23-08-2008
Quote from: HtoHe on 17:31:49, 23-08-2008
Apparently anything ending in an 'iz' sound doesn't need an extra s - eg Frank Bridges' music .



Except that he was a singular Bridge, so it's Frank Bridge's music.

A better example would be Robert Bridges' poems.

You’re quite right, Mary.  What a silly mistake to make; thank you for the correction. Actually Lynne Truss uses the example Bridges’ score and I elaborated without thinking.  Perhaps she was referring to a cricketer called Bridges or something similar.  Anyway, that’ll teach me not to be too clever!

Another interesting thing about punctuation is the number of people, including myself, who make elementary errors in typing that they’d never make with a pen.  Many times I’ve seen a post of mine appear with, say, an apostrophe in a plural or a glaring spelling mistake (their instead of they’re or vice versa, for example); and I know I’m not alone in this.
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IgnorantRockFan
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« Reply #10 on: 22:26:07, 23-08-2008 »
I agree with HtoHe's general rules, though I would rarely trust Lynn Truss as a reliable authority.

I find Member Grew's first example intriguing. It's a case I can't recall ever thinking about before. I will have to sleep on it...
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Bryn
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« Reply #11 on: 22:34:25, 23-08-2008 »
Quote
"Practice varies widely in for conscience' sake and for goodness' sake, and the use of an apostrophe in them must be regarded as optional" The New Fowler's Modern English Usage, ed. Burchfield, RW, 3rd edition, 1996, entry for "sake", p. 686.
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IgnorantRockFan
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« Reply #12 on: 22:38:42, 23-08-2008 »
Fowler's 2nd edition (1965) has the same advice, Bryn.
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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #13 on: 10:52:01, 24-08-2008 »
 
Quote from: HtoHe on 18:00:14, 23-08-2008
  We put an extra letter in potatoes and tomatoes - presumably to preserve the connection between spelling and pronunciation; but we don't seem to have extended this to avocados, pimentos

You say tomatoes, but I say pimentos - let's call the whole thing off? Wink
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
-  Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
autoharp
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« Reply #14 on: 11:43:57, 24-08-2008 »
Have we been here before?

http://r3ok.myforum365.com/index.php?topic=875.msg120345#msg120345
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