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Author Topic: "Britain Is Full"  (Read 505 times)
Reiner Torheit
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« on: 02:48:52, 31-08-2008 »

The Grauniad's continuing lurch rightwards continues with an anti-immigration piece:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/aug/31/immigration.population

I am so glad to be leaving Britain tomorrow  Sad
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brassbandmaestro
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The ties that bind


« Reply #1 on: 09:11:26, 31-08-2008 »

Room for one more then Reiner!!
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Baz
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« Reply #2 on: 09:17:31, 31-08-2008 »

The Grauniad's continuing lurch rightwards continues with an anti-immigration piece:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/aug/31/immigration.population

I am so glad to be leaving Britain tomorrow  Sad

So again we see an example of the British inability to discuss an important social matter like Immigration without an immediate assumption that the discussion offered is both "right wing" and "racist". The writer, at several points, goes to pains to draw attention to this inbuilt problem. The truth is that the whole further discussion of Immigration in this country is now completely taboo.

We can contrast this with the country to which Reiner is departing. As is clear from THIS, unlike Britain where the ageing population is on the increase and in need of being supported by a strategically-initiated and corresponding increase in the numbers of younger inhabitants, Russia has a population in annual decline. This seems to be because people die younger through illness and other causes unfamiliar to us here. There the economic benefits of immigration are clear, but apparently not backed up with controlled immigration policies. So it seems that migrants there more frequently suffer at the hands of unscrupulous employers and (because of their frequent illegal status - to which the system turns a blind eye until their ineligibility for any state benefits is identified) an inadequate protection from a state seemingly more concerned with "numbers" than with "people".

I read the article as being one rehearsing logistical issues, not racial or political ones. Perhaps others read it differently.

Baz
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richard barrett
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« Reply #3 on: 10:21:21, 31-08-2008 »

The article (as opposed to the headline, which would have been written by someone else) isn't actually about immigration but about the rising population of the UK, to which in fact immigration is a relatively insignificant contributor, whatever the gutter press might scream at us. What it is, though, is scaremongering fluff which again is all too prevalent in suposedly intelligent news media these days. The author quotes a projection that the population of this country will reach 77 million in 50 years' time ("if present trends continue", which they very seldom do on a timescale like that) and then tekes this out of context to conjure up a vision of what Britain as it is now would be like if you suddenly dropped another 16 million people in the South East. It would grind to a halt of course. But history doesn't actually happen like that. I just don't see the point in writing this kind of ill-informed and misleading stuff.
« Last Edit: 10:23:57, 31-08-2008 by richard barrett » Logged
Baz
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« Reply #4 on: 10:39:20, 31-08-2008 »

The article (as opposed to the headline, which would have been written by someone else) isn't actually about immigration but about the rising population of the UK, to which in fact immigration is a relatively insignificant contributor, whatever the gutter press might scream at us. What it is, though, is scaremongering fluff which again is all too prevalent in suposedly intelligent news media these days. The author quotes a projection that the population of this country will reach 77 million in 50 years' time ("if present trends continue", which they very seldom do on a timescale like that) and then tekes this out of context to conjure up a vision of what Britain as it is now would be like if you suddenly dropped another 16 million people in the South East. It would grind to a halt of course. But history doesn't actually happen like that. I just don't see the point in writing this kind of ill-informed and misleading stuff.

Immigration is not such a small issue Richard as the article makes clear...

Quote
The European Commission estimated that immigrants would account for 10 million of Britain's 16 million increase in numbers.

The article is, of course, about population growth projections and not about "immigration". But immigration plays a larger factor in this than you suggest. It is also difficult to see how projections can in any way be offered that do not take into account "present trends" (these being the only concrete figures that exist). In order for society to plan its future (taking into account its current behaviour patterns) 3 strategies seem to present themselves:

a) encourage older people to die earlier
b) introduce a Chinese-style legal requirement that families restrict themselves to x-number of offspring only
c) curtail the numbers of extra bodies importing themselves into the country for the purposes of permanent residence

It may be that a combination of some or all of these is possible. But to deny option c) because it is possibly "racist" seems unbelievably crass and naive, as opposed denying option a) because it is "inhumane".

Baz
« Last Edit: 10:44:07, 31-08-2008 by Baz » Logged
perfect wagnerite
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« Reply #5 on: 10:47:59, 31-08-2008 »


Immigration is not such a small issue Richard as the article makes clear...

Quote
The European Commission estimated that immigrants would account for 10 million of Britain's 16 million increase in numbers.

The article is, of course, about population growth projections and not about "immigration". But immigration plays a larger factor in this than you suggest.


On the contrary, ONS figures show that net migration to the UK in 2006 was only 191,000, with a trend line that is not climbing particularly fast:

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/CCI/nugget.asp?id=260

These figures also show that those leaving Britain are doing so for longer, while those arriving are staying for shorter periods.  I've got some experience of how the European Commission (mis)uses numbers -  and in this context I'd add that open borders and Schengen make population movements within the EU very difficult to estimate (Britain of course is not part of Schengen) and I'd personally trust the ONS over the Commission every time.
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richard barrett
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« Reply #6 on: 10:50:43, 31-08-2008 »

a) encourage older people to die earlier
b) introduce a Chinese-style legal requirement that families restrict themselves to x-number of offspring only
c) curtail the numbers of extra bodies importing themselves into the country for the purposes of permanent residence

It may be that a combination of some or all of these is possible. But to deny option c) because it is possibly "racist" seems unbelievably crass and naive, as opposed denying option a) because it is "inhumane".

My main point of contention with the article is that making population projections 50 years into the future and then superimposing the on present-day Britain is nonsense. Option (c) is just as inhumane as option (a) actually.
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Robert Dahm
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« Reply #7 on: 10:52:04, 31-08-2008 »

I just don't see the point in writing this kind of ill-informed and misleading stuff.

The point, presumably, is to help prompt the changes in infrastructure that will allow 16 million people to be dropped into the South East.

There are two ways of looking at these sorts of changes. The first is to hope that the change will, of its own accord, achieve its own kind of equilibrium. The second is to attempt to bridge the gap between social need and the chronically slow reaction times of governments by raising awareness of the issue - often through this sort of scaremongering.

While I'm not necessarily suggesting any kind of equivalence, here, the global warming situation wouldn't even be getting the pitiful governmental attention it is without the extremist 'scaremongering' of certain individuals over the last two decades. Changing the course of Governmental policy is like trying to turn the Titanic, in that by the time the danger is obvious, it's far too late: the wheel needed to be turned back when the issue still looked like paranoid pipe-dreams.
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richard barrett
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« Reply #8 on: 11:02:36, 31-08-2008 »

the global warming situation wouldn't even be getting the pitiful governmental attention it is without the extremist 'scaremongering' of certain individuals over the last two decades.

Those "scaremongers" however were climate scientists with the best possible command of the evidence as it's understood. The article we're talking about here was thrown together by a journalist with space to fill, who as PW points out is either ignorant of the full statistical picture or has chosen to edit out the bits that don't suit his sensationalist "thesis".
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Sydney Grew
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« Reply #9 on: 11:13:11, 31-08-2008 »

In order for society to plan its future (taking into account its current behaviour patterns) 3 strategies seem to present themselves:

a) encourage older people to die earlier
b) introduce a Chinese-style legal requirement that families restrict themselves to x-number of offspring only
c) curtail the numbers of extra bodies importing themselves into the country for the purposes of permanent residence

Fourth strategy: urge the absurd "national government" to go into voluntary liquidation, abolish the silly and old-fashioned idea of "my country", and join all the other former "nations" in a European - and eventually world - union.
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richard barrett
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« Reply #10 on: 11:24:13, 31-08-2008 »

urge the absurd "national government" to go into voluntary liquidation, abolish the silly and old-fashioned idea of "my country", and join all the other former "nations" in a European - and eventually world - union.

The problem with utopian ideas like this is that their proponents never have the faintest idea of how the transition to their vision of the world could actually be set in motion.
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Baz
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« Reply #11 on: 11:30:40, 31-08-2008 »

In order for society to plan its future (taking into account its current behaviour patterns) 3 strategies seem to present themselves:

a) encourage older people to die earlier
b) introduce a Chinese-style legal requirement that families restrict themselves to x-number of offspring only
c) curtail the numbers of extra bodies importing themselves into the country for the purposes of permanent residence

Fourth strategy: urge the absurd "national government" to go into voluntary liquidation, abolish the silly and old-fashioned idea of "my country", and join all the other former "nations" in a European - and eventually world - union.


Who would rule the world and how would they be chosen to do so? After they started their reign what methods of accountability would exist with regard to the actions they undertook?

Baz
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Ron Dough
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« Reply #12 on: 11:40:41, 31-08-2008 »

And from a practical point of view, how would they ever side-step the fact that not only boundaries, but language and religion create tribal identities?
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harmonyharmony
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« Reply #13 on: 11:50:19, 31-08-2008 »

This makes me think about the way that most African countries have preserved their colonial borders.

Many of these countries are riven by ethnic division, having been sandwiched together by their 'benevolent and enlightened' invaders and having had the continent divided up on the basis of land rather than of ethnicity. When there is talk of Mugabe dispossessing and oppressing his 'own people' that's not how he sees it: he's favouring his own tribe against another.
In many ways, it would make sense to redivide the continent along ethnic lines, but this would mean rebuilding infrastructure from scratch, or at least an extremely costly remodelling. It has happened in a few places but it has been bloody and painful.

What I'm trying to say is that it strikes me that infrastructure is one of the most important aspects of politics, and much more important than patriotism. In order to build a true European Union, new infrastructure would have to be developed in a sensitive, open and equal way. There are no good models for such a large federation (except in science fiction perhaps, but I can't remember any example in the genre that gives a detailed suggestion as to how this actually works), since I think it is clear that our current ideas about how politics function would just not work with a federation of that size, let alone a federation of the size of the planet.

I also think that, as a species, we're just not developed enough to get to the kind of altruistic non-partisan government that this would necessitate. I think of the Anglican Communion's internal wars. If a religion supposedly based upon self sacrifice and charitable acts cannot maintain a union of a considerably smaller size, what hope do politicians have? (And in case anyone thinks that I'm suggesting a difference between the politics of the church and the politics of the 'world'... No. I'm not that naive. It just seemed to be an interesting comment.)
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« Reply #14 on: 12:13:49, 31-08-2008 »

we need a global 'open door' policy, that way people can just move around as they like

think 'no barriers' not 'raise barriers'

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