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Author Topic: Gorecki Syphony No 3 Sorrowful Songs  (Read 579 times)
Janthefan
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« on: 10:44:31, 09-07-2007 »

Wow ! I heard this on R3 yesterday afternoon, quite by chance. Beautiful.

 I was reclining in the new campervan, overlooking:


If I were to buy a copy on CD, should this Dawn Upshaw/David Zinman recording be my choice?

x Jan x
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tonybob
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« Reply #1 on: 10:46:44, 09-07-2007 »

that's the version to go for.
it's a shame it was so popular back in the '90s.
put a lot of people off - me included.
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Ron Dough
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« Reply #2 on: 10:57:31, 09-07-2007 »

Before the Upshaw/Zinman recording was available, I'd already come across the work in a Polish recording by Stefania Woytowicz and the Polish National Radio SO of Katowice/Jerzy Katlewicz, which is a darker deeper reading with very different vocal qualities and has always made the Upshaw sound rather 'Disneyfied' to my way of thinking. I would add that there are works by other Polish composers (Szymanowski, Lutoslawski, Panufnik and Penderecki particularly) which I find far more satisfying than the Gorecki, and to which I return far more frequently.
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increpatio
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« Reply #3 on: 11:41:48, 09-07-2007 »

Just like to ditto that I do quite like it.  Haven't listened to it in a while though...maybe should give it a spin this week again...hmm....
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TimR-J
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« Reply #4 on: 11:48:04, 09-07-2007 »

I would also put in a word for Gorecki 2 - which is available on what I believe is a decent recording (I don't own another to compare it with) on Naxos. (And Ron reminds me that I really must hunt down that original Polish recording of the 3rd from the 70s.)

Quite a different piece from no.3 (lots more going on, for a start), but equally beautiful in places, and if pushed I'd say this was my favourite piece by Gorecki.

Naxos are actually pretty good on Polish music - lots of CDs by the composers Ron mentions are available through them and all worth exploring, although not all necessarily like Gorecki. Another I would put in a word for though is Wojciech Kilar. Better known as a film composer (The Pianist, Bram Stoker's Dracula, etc) he's a very fine composer in that late Gorecki vein. This Naxos CD is probably the best place to start.
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time_is_now
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« Reply #5 on: 13:32:14, 09-07-2007 »

And this is an absolutely fantastic Górecki disc, with several of his most striking earlier works:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Essential-G%C3%B3recki-Henryk-Gorecki/dp/B000003W6X/ref=sr_1_1/026-9539117-0494024?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1183984261&sr=1-1
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offbeat
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« Reply #6 on: 21:54:55, 09-07-2007 »

Like both Symphony 2 and 3 although anyone familiar with no 3 may have a nasty shock if expecting the same for no 2 which totally different soundworld but interesting nevertheless - while on subject of Gorecki must mention my favourite of his namely the 32 minute work Miserere - deeply spiritual and atmospheric and ideal for listening in a campervan or anywhere else  Cool
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increpatio
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« Reply #7 on: 21:55:50, 09-07-2007 »

Like both Symphony 2 and 3 although anyone familiar with no 3 may have a nasty shock if expecting the same for no 2 which totally different soundworld but interesting nevertheless - while on subject of Gorecki must mention my favourite of his namely the 32 minute work Miserere - deeply spiritual and atmospheric and ideal for listening in a campervan or anywhere else  Cool

Oh yes, that is great.  Also his harpsichord concerto is certainly worth listening to.
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pim_derks
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« Reply #8 on: 22:53:15, 09-07-2007 »

I would add that there are works by (...) Panufnik (...) which I find far more satisfying than the Gorecki, and to which I return far more frequently.

Please tell me about these works, Ron. I heard a lot of works by Panufnik (when he was Composer of the Week, for instance), but his music has made little impression on me, so far.
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Ron Dough
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« Reply #9 on: 00:08:54, 10-07-2007 »

Gladly, Pim.

I find that for most people the best place to start is with two of the earlier symphonies, the Sinfonia Rustica and the Sinfonia Sacra, though I am aware that both were included in the week's programmes, and seem not to have pushed your button at all. Nearly all of us have immunity to certain composers, which can be something as simple as psychological wiring, the same wiring which makes us addicted to the work of others; both of these pieces hit straight home the first time I encountered them, and they have remained best friends ever since.

The other good place to start might be the recent Naxos disc of early works, which starts with pieces which seem to be closely allied to the British string reworkings of old music such as Warlock's Capriol Suite, and moves forward to a work which has the same slightly ascerbic harmonic twists which remained with him until his final works. (8.570032)

The two symphonies were reissued last year coupled to one more after an absence from the catalogue on EMI mid-price 0946 3 52289 2. In both the composer plays with the orchestral layout: in Rustica two string orchestras are separated by a central block of flute, two oboes, two basoons, two horns and a trumpet, whilst in Sacra four trumpets are spaced around the orchestra. Both symphonies make use of Polish themes; in the Rustica they're folksy, in the Sacra it's the first known Polish hymn. The trick (maybe inspired by Jana?ek's Sinfonietta) of repeating the first movement over the climax of the last is one of my all time hair-on-the-back-of-the-neck moments.

Maybe try the Naxos first, and see if the Hommage ą Chopin does anything for you: if it does, then I'll try and lead you through the Sacra stage by stage, to show you how intricately it's constructed - though you certaily don't have to be aware of that to enjoy it...

Best wishes,
Ron
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time_is_now
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« Reply #10 on: 09:54:42, 10-07-2007 »

if it does, then I'll try and lead you through the Sacra stage by stage, to show you how intricately it's constructed - though you certaily don't have to be aware of that to enjoy it...
I think it's how intricately it's constructed that puts me off some of those Panufnik pieces, Ron ... Sad
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Ron Dough
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« Reply #11 on: 10:20:06, 10-07-2007 »

It's at the point where the construction process takes precedence over the music itself that I'd agree with tinners, but in Panufnik's case it's in relatively few later works. I'd known and loved the two earlier symphonies for years before I had the score of the Sacra and began to see the tight processes which controlled it. His is of course a comment which could be levelled at many other works written in the last century or so: in the end if this creates a sterile, emotionless, intellectual exercise, then my reaction is likely to be negative too; but I've never found it to be the case with either of these works. Sacra is simply one of the most moving and uplifting pieces I know, and it was very plain from the reaction to the CoTW programmes last year that I was far from alone in my love for his music.

But, hey, tinners! Diff'rent strokes for diff'rent folks...

Ron
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time_is_now
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« Reply #12 on: 11:09:53, 10-07-2007 »

I've never knowingly heard the Sacra, Ron - I'd be delighted to discover that Panufnik's not as sterile as I had him down for! (It's not exactly sterile, but sort of middleground and background without foreground is how I imagined those middle-period symphonies to be, a bit like Robert Simpson perhaps). Have already made a mental note to listen when I get the chance.

Will also look out for that Concerto festivo you mentioned, which I realised I was getting completely mixed up about. It's the Sinfonia votiva that's on the Helios disc with Sessions. Is that the other earlier symphony you mean? It's a couple of very late ones that put me off, although they're not without a certain craggy grandeur.
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Ron Dough
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« Reply #13 on: 11:45:29, 10-07-2007 »

The Rustica and Sacra are earlier than the Votiva, tinners: they belong to the same eastern european tradition as the Martinu symphonies or the Concerto for Orchestra by Lutoslawski (with whom Panufnik performed piano duets prior to his flight form Poland). The Helios Votiva; I find it a game of two halves, tending to listen to the second part whilst ignoring the first. Maybe that's partly down to Ozawa's conducting: there was a live version from the BBC conducted by the composer available for a while, and the whole piece makes rather more sense in his reading. The Concerto Festivo (written for and first performed by the LSO - sans conductor) is another victim of the fall of Conifer, which had in turn taken over the catalogue of his recordings amassed by Unicorn-Kanchana on their demise.

Now that Panufnik is accepted in Poland again, it may be that we get a complete cycle of his symphonies at last. Until then, the EMi recording is the one to go for; there's a later composer-led Sacra with the Concertgebouw which doesn't quite have the same fire, and is out of the catalogue anyway; a recent Polish one by Kazimierz Kord on the Accord label which is not bad at all; and a deleted one by Gerard Schwarz and the Seattle. He did Sacra at the Proms during his brief RLPO tenure a few years back and it was excellent, but his recording on JVC, which took a huge amount of hunting to find, has to be one of my greatest-ever disappointments; it all starts brilliantly, but his wilfully wayward tempo for the Hymn (he takes 16:33 where Panufnik takes 10:53 and 9:27, and Kord 10:45 - it's like Lenny's Nimrod all over again) just breaks its back completely.
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time_is_now
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« Reply #14 on: 12:54:26, 10-07-2007 »

I think I might have that Kazimierz Kord, Ron (on the Polish Accord, not the French Accord!): I picked it up in Warsaw - or actually, maybe it was in Krakow, implausibly enough - a couple of years ago. It's still shrinkwrapped if so - I know you know the feeling. Is it coupled with a late Cello Concerto (No. 2 maybe)?
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
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