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oliver sudden
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« Reply #30 on: 11:55:25, 16-11-2007 » |
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I think the key to the thing about Telemann having been more highly regarded than Bach is that his music is (er, for most people) simply a lot easier to grasp. Bach's melodies have plenty of odd corners and don't always flow as naturally as Telemann's (or for that matter Vivaldi's); they're also normally played simultaneously with plenty of other melodies which is exactly the sort of thing we appreciate in it nowadays but not so much the sort of thing a bourgeois German of the 18th century would like to tap his feet to.
(I think that's a reasonably value-judgement-free view of the situation...)
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C Dish
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« Reply #31 on: 20:32:45, 16-11-2007 » |
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(I think that's a reasonably value-judgement-free view of the situation...)
Yes, but what do YOU think?! |
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inert fig here
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rauschwerk
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« Reply #32 on: 07:40:38, 17-11-2007 » |
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I'll tell you what I think of Telemann. Most of his music that I know (ie about 0.1% of his output) I have enjoyed hugely for a few hearings, but then the CD stays on the shelf for a very long time. I remember being temporarily obsessed by a rhythmic trick in a movement from one of his Orchestral Suites. This begins in the middle of a hemiola at a quick tempo, and it was some time before I could grasp the underlying metre. Once I did, though, the music, though agreeable, didn't seem to have a lot else to offer. This reminds me of the 'hook' used by 20th century pop song composers to make a tune lodge itself in the listener's head quickly.
Of course, Telemann didn't mind if people soon got tired of any given piece - by that time he had no doubt written about 20 more! How could a man be so prolific?
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Antheil
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« Reply #33 on: 07:51:59, 17-11-2007 » |
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My mental blocks seem to echo a lot of others, Britten, Delius, Debussy and Mozart and to add to that list, Percy Grainger. Although I find him an extremely interesting person and, I'll have to see if I can find it and post it, there was an amazing Australian radio broadcast about his experimental music.
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Reality, sa molesworth 2, is so sordid it makes me shudder
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Sydney Grew
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« Reply #34 on: 09:04:34, 17-11-2007 » |
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Bach's melodies have plenty of odd corners . . . Indeed Mr. Sudden they do: although sometimes too they remind us of this refugee from an alternative universe - it has no corners at all nor even distinguishable sides: |
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Ron Dough
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« Reply #35 on: 09:27:58, 17-11-2007 » |
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Anty,
On the Grainger front: there's a huge amount more of his work than is generally played, and you may well find that the key to enjoying him lies not in the well known warhorses, but the less common works. Those pieces of his which have a sentimental streak have never impressed me either: but they're decidedly in the minority. Most of his work has an ebullient life-affirming passion that I find irresistible: indeed it is him of all composers that I turn to first when a lift is required....but there's no accounting for the wiring of brains!
R
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Antheil
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« Reply #36 on: 09:35:23, 17-11-2007 » |
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Ron,
I am busy searching my archives for that Australian broadcast, I know I sent it to Bryn, I wonder if he has it still? Absolutely fascinating programme.
Care to recommend some Grainger to me?
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Reality, sa molesworth 2, is so sordid it makes me shudder
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Ron Dough
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« Reply #37 on: 10:29:19, 17-11-2007 » |
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Anty, Here's an Australian CD reissue of the disc that ignited my Grainger addiction: Britten was a fervent admirer of his music too, and really knows how to make it work. Not exactly a bank-breaker. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Grainger-Danny-Boy-PETER-PEARS/dp/B000060MDU/ref=sr_1_46?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1195293415&sr=1-46 If that line-up doesn't appeal, then there are two other places to look for a basic compendium: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Introduction-Percy-Grainger/dp/B000GNOHUU/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1195293217&sr=1-3is largely derived from Chandos's comprehensive trawl through his catalogue: I may have reservations about Hickox in some repertoire, but he's pretty reliable here: or http://www.amazon.co.uk/Grainger-Songs-Dancing-Ballads-Percy/dp/B0000041DB/ref=sr_1_17?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1195294326&sr=1-17which I have to say doesn't particularly float my boat, though I know people who love it. There aren't that many long Grainger works, but the big two are probably A Lincolnshire Posy - a suite based on folksongs he'd collected himself - for wind band, and the 'imaginary ballet', The Warriors. Two more works I couldn't live without: recording choice perhaps a tad more difficult. Hope that this may get you started, anyway, R |
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Sydney Grew
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« Reply #38 on: 11:11:48, 17-11-2007 » |
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Still pondering Bach's "corners" we are prompted to add a little more. First another example thereof and indeed of his admitted quirkiness in general: But then at once consider this! It too has plenty of those corners but is generally considered one of his best and most popular melodies is not it: Was Wachet Auf popular or admired in the eighteenth century? And what is Telemann's rating in comparison to that for example of Vivaldi? Are not their productions much of a muchness? |
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Ena
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« Reply #39 on: 13:00:28, 17-11-2007 » |
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Bach's melodies have plenty of odd corners . . . Indeed Mr. Sudden they do: although sometimes too they remind us of this refugee from an alternative universe - it has no corners at all nor even distinguishable sides: Well Mr Grew! Some of us think that only a most remarkable composer would have come up with a fugue subject that - being the last one in a cycle of 24 that has been through every key - presents a melody containing All twelve note-pitches of the Well-Tempered scale! So let's forget about all those supposedly 'innovatory' dodecaphonists - just for a minute. Good old BACH!   |
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Kittybriton
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« Reply #40 on: 13:58:13, 17-11-2007 » |
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And what is Telemann's rating in comparison to that for example of Vivaldi? Are not their productions much of a muchness?
Is it unfair to say of Vivaldi as some have done, that he didn't write 500+ concertos, but one concerto 500+ times? |
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Click me -> About meor me -> my handmade storeNo, I'm not a complete idiot. I'm only a halfwit. In fact I'm actually a catfish. |
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C Dish
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« Reply #41 on: 14:02:05, 17-11-2007 » |
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Still pondering Bach's "corners" we are prompted to add a little more. First another example thereof and indeed of his admitted quirkiness in general: All four of the Duettos from the Clavierübung contain something hair-raising. Yes, and the a minor Prelude and Fugue from WTC I are nicht ganz ohne: One of several Shockwave movies about the WTC Fugues |
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inert fig here
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Ena
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« Reply #42 on: 14:09:45, 17-11-2007 » |
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And what is Telemann's rating in comparison to that for example of Vivaldi? Are not their productions much of a muchness?
Is it unfair to say of Vivaldi as some have done, that he didn't write 500+ concertos, but one concerto 500+ times? I think so love, especially since (having 500+ to choose from) nobody has yet managed to show how a single one of them is in any way a copy of any of the others. |
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rauschwerk
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« Reply #43 on: 16:41:02, 17-11-2007 » |
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I have gone off Mahler gradually over the last 40 years, and there is hardly anything of his I would care to listen to nowadays - perhaps the 6th symphony. Those trombone solos in the first mvt. of No 3 make me want to scream.
As for Charlie Ives, I love 3 Places in New England and a few other things, otherwise I find his music tiresome in the extreme.
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Kittybriton
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« Reply #44 on: 18:31:00, 17-11-2007 » |
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Is it unfair to say of Vivaldi as some have done, that he didn't write 500+ concertos, but one concerto 500+ times?
I think so love, especially since (having 500+ to choose from) nobody has yet managed to show how a single one of them is in any way a copy of any of the others. Thanks Ena. I can see how a lot of folk might think a lot of them sound like "all the right notes, not necessarily in the right order" though. I have a soft spot for the double mandolin concerto myself (can't find the catalogue number offhand though). |
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Click me -> About meor me -> my handmade storeNo, I'm not a complete idiot. I'm only a halfwit. In fact I'm actually a catfish. |
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