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Author Topic: What's a "musical snob"?  (Read 5048 times)
George Garnett
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« Reply #195 on: 11:21:04, 03-07-2008 »

Throughout the whole of its history, classical music has been the preserve of higher classes in society, and served as a major factor in legitimising and consolidating the power of those classes

A "major" factor? Blimey!  
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #196 on: 11:22:54, 03-07-2008 »

Throughout the whole of its history, classical music has been the preserve of higher classes in society, and served as a major factor in legitimising and consolidating the power of those classes

A "major" factor? Blimey!  
In conjunction with other cultural forms, yes.
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
richard barrett
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« Reply #197 on: 11:30:37, 03-07-2008 »

A "major" factor? Blimey!  

The throne of England itself has been occupied by at least two composers, as any fule kno.
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Ruby2
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« Reply #198 on: 11:48:06, 03-07-2008 »

Ian – are you concurring with that view, or simply pointing out that the viewpoint exists? 
You mean the snobbery towards pop fans/listeners, or the idea that value can mean more than simply personal taste? Certainly don't concur with the former, but I do with the latter.
The idea that value can mean more than simply personal taste.

I think I'm just beating at the uninformed/informed appreciation/liking horse again (sorry guys, I was banging on enough about it on Tuesday and Richard had pacified me at the time).  Your use of the word "value" does put a different spin on it though as it's a different aspect of judgement about something.

Perhaps this is why people are so afraid of the classical world. If there's a perception that they're not allowed to just like things, they have to recognise value as well, that requires more investment. 

It isn't just a straight relationship of pop=like classical=value though.  Maybe in rock/pop it's easier to just "like" if you want to - nobody's going to beat you up about why unless you go to a specialist forum.  The world of classical enthusiasts is full of very bright people though, which can be intimidating if you feel like you're not going to say the right thing.
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"Two wrongs don't make a right.  But three rights do make a left." - Rohan Candappa
HtoHe
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« Reply #199 on: 11:59:05, 03-07-2008 »

I'm half-listening to Shots from the Hip on Radio 4 (I'm really working, honest!) and it's just occurred to me how rash it is to assume ones own memory is reliable - and how much rasher it is just to take the word of historians/journalists who might have an inflated sense of the importance of their own ideas.  They just interviewed a journalist (Caroline Coon?) who was reminiscing about being in at the start of the Pistols' career.  She seemed to be arguing that having a name like "The Sex Pistols' represented unprecedented audacity in 1975; but as a music journalist she must have been aware of Disco-Tex and the Sex-O-Lettes who not only had been around for some time but had at least one major hit in the year the Pistols were formed. 
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richard barrett
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« Reply #200 on: 12:03:03, 03-07-2008 »

The idea that value can mean more than simply personal taste.

(...)

Perhaps this is why people are so afraid of the classical world. If there's a perception that they're not allowed to just like things, they have to recognise value as well, that requires more investment. 

I think you're right, Ruby. On the one hand it's clear I think that "personal taste" isn't as simple a phenomenon as is often made out, and has all kinds of conditioning, pressures, power structures and contradictions behind it, which have been exhaustively analysed by various highly insightful authors, the ideas that such analysis (a) leads to any kind of recognisable objective system of "value", particularly one which values one generalised type of music above another, and (b) is a necessary prerequisite to appreciating the music, are IMO quite misleading.
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strinasacchi
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« Reply #201 on: 12:14:48, 03-07-2008 »

I'm curious about this notion that "classical" music was primarily written for and on behalf of the rich and powerful, and are still perceived as such.  The same is true for the visual arts - and while later styles and possibly more democratic styles (impressionist onward) are arguably more popular than earlier things, no one would glaze over or call you a snob/elitist if you say you went to the Uffizi on your holiday, or that you visit the National Gallery regularly.  Museums were designed to bring artworks originally created for the private pleasure of the powerful to the people.  I think public concerts are the same.  Many are free or offer cheap tickets, and no one's actually conducting an entrance exam at the door.  So why do classical music novices decide to feel excluded from concerts, yet art novices feel able to wander into a museum and look around (or at least don't think it's a strange thing for others to do)?
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #202 on: 12:21:01, 03-07-2008 »

One of the reasons I hold onto the possibility of value over and above personal taste would be because of analogy with food: there is a sense in which the best dishes of French, Italian, Chinese, Mexican, etc. cuisine are of a higher value than a Big Mac, despite the fact that, internationally, more people want to eat the latter.

All judgements of value ultimately rest upon subjective criteria, but there are some criteria which I believe can gain a certain degree of wider consent, even if that does not necessarily translate into those who can assent to the criteria necessarily wanting to partake primarily of the associated cultural products.

And, as Eagleton says in the excerpts I posted earlier in this thread, any communication between two or more individuals concerning their view of certain cultural products presupposes some sort of common language, and overlap in terms of ideas of what is valuable, between those individuals. If questions of taste and value had no meaning over and above the first person, why would anyone bother posting their view on a piece of music/performance here?
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
Ian Pace
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« Reply #203 on: 12:26:09, 03-07-2008 »

I'm curious about this notion that "classical" music was primarily written for and on behalf of the rich and powerful, and are still perceived as such.  The same is true for the visual arts - and while later styles and possibly more democratic styles (impressionist onward) are arguably more popular than earlier things, no one would glaze over or call you a snob/elitist if you say you went to the Uffizi on your holiday, or that you visit the National Gallery regularly.  Museums were designed to bring artworks originally created for the private pleasure of the powerful to the people.  I think public concerts are the same.  Many are free or offer cheap tickets, and no one's actually conducting an entrance exam at the door.  So why do classical music novices decide to feel excluded from concerts, yet art novices feel able to wander into a museum and look around (or at least don't think it's a strange thing for others to do)?
Perhaps the same reason that some shoppers feel intimidated when considering going into high class fashion designers' shops? The aura of exclusivity seems a powerful force in classical concerts; I find this to be more the case in concerts in the bigger venues in London than in other major Western cities I have visited. But I would tie that in with the particular form of snobbery, aloofness, condescension, and sense of implicit superiority (and above all, pseudo-aristocratic disdain for anything that might be constructed as a more 'emotional' reaction to music) of the British upper middle classes, who often predominate there. It's all expressed through forms of dress, speech, body language and so on as well as more overtly. It doesn't seem to be so much the case in galleries, but on the other hand there isn't the same necessary investiture of time there.

Concerts of contemporary classical music can be the worst of all, though, when over 90% of the audience already know each other, most of them are professionally or otherwise involved in the business, and there's a strong sense (at least I find) that the events are about networking, or simply 'supporting one's team' (in the sense of one's own inner group).
« Last Edit: 12:27:54, 03-07-2008 by Ian Pace » Logged

'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
Ian_Lawson
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« Reply #204 on: 12:30:09, 03-07-2008 »




Perhaps this is why people are so afraid of the classical world. If there's a perception that they're not allowed to just like things, they have to recognise value as well, that requires more investment. 



The crucial difference between ‘classical’ and ‘pop’ which explains this is, that essentially pop music is individuals appealing to other individuals there are no central authorities trying to ‘lead taste’- there are simply too many players and conflicting/competing interests. In contrast ‘classical’ music is much more reliant on relatively few ‘institutions’ for which the concept of ‘value’ is essential.
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Ian_Lawson
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« Reply #205 on: 12:45:55, 03-07-2008 »

One of the reasons I hold onto the possibility of value over and above personal taste would be because of analogy with food: there is a sense in which the best dishes of French, Italian, Chinese, Mexican, etc. cuisine are of a higher value than a Big Mac, despite the fact that, internationally, more people want to eat the latter.

The difference between music and food is that music has no purpose other than to be valued/liked etc, whereas food has an additional paraphrasable purpose of fuelling the body. It makes perfect sense to value a food highly for its objectively high nutritional value while not actually liking it. 
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perfect wagnerite
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« Reply #206 on: 12:56:06, 03-07-2008 »

The aura of exclusivity seems a powerful force in classical concerts; I find this to be more the case in concerts in the bigger venues in London than in other major Western cities I have visited. But I would tie that in with the particular form of snobbery, aloofness, condescension, and sense of implicit superiority (and above all, pseudo-aristocratic disdain for anything that might be constructed as a more 'emotional' reaction to music) of the British upper middle classes, who often predominate there. It's all expressed through forms of dress, speech, body language and so on as well as more overtly. It doesn't seem to be so much the case in galleries, but on the other hand there isn't the same necessary investiture of time there.

I've quoted it here before, ages ago, but there's a passage from Bernard Shaw's Don Juan in Hell that is very apposite to this discussion and is worth repeating:

[Donna Anna has died and gone to Hell; she is outraged and determined to get back to Heaven.  The Devil and the Commendatore are trying to persuade her otherwise]

THE STATUE:  At every one of these [classical] concerts in England you will find rows of weary people who are there, not because they really like classical music, but because they think they ought to like it. Well, there is the same thing in Heaven.  A number of people sit there in glory, not because they are happy, but because they think they owe it to their position to be in Heaven.  They are almost all English.

THE DEVIL:  Yes: the Southerners give it up and join me just as you have done.  But the English really do not seem to know when they are thoroughly miserable.  An Englishman thinks he is moral when he is only uncomfortable.
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At every one of these [classical] concerts in England you will find rows of weary people who are there, not because they really like classical music, but because they think they ought to like it. (Shaw, Don Juan in Hell)
Ian Pace
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« Reply #207 on: 13:00:54, 03-07-2008 »

One of the reasons I hold onto the possibility of value over and above personal taste would be because of analogy with food: there is a sense in which the best dishes of French, Italian, Chinese, Mexican, etc. cuisine are of a higher value than a Big Mac, despite the fact that, internationally, more people want to eat the latter.

The difference between music and food is that music has no purpose other than to be valued/liked etc, whereas food has an additional paraphrasable purpose of fuelling the body. It makes perfect sense to value a food highly for its objectively high nutritional value while not actually liking it. 
Yes, but there's far more to the cuisines I mention above than simply nutritional value, which could be obtained simply from a certain number of basic ingredients cooked quite simply. And is it not possible that listening to music (of all types, by no means necessarily or primarily classical) might at best open up people's minds to different sensibilities, different cultures, different modes of communication, different aesthetics, different varieties of emotional experience, and mightn't that be something good in itself (which is in no sense to imply that music necessarily does this, though it can, I believe)?
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
Ian Pace
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« Reply #208 on: 13:05:46, 03-07-2008 »

The crucial difference between ‘classical’ and ‘pop’ which explains this is, that essentially pop music is individuals appealing to other individuals there are no central authorities trying to ‘lead taste’- there are simply too many players and conflicting/competing interests.
I really can't believe that, any more than with, say the fashion industry. There are major record companies with huge resources and power definitely trying to 'lead taste' through millions spent on advertising, publicity, etc., and the stakes are much higher in terms of the potential profits to be gained. And they also divert large amounts of their resources in trying to get the radio stations to play their artists' music, to get articles about them in the press and magazines, and so on and so forth. Not all of them are equally successful, of course, and there are competing interests all aiming to dominate taste, but I can't accept that these mechanisms of advanced capitalist musical production really guarantee such a level of diversity.
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
burning dog
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« Reply #209 on: 13:10:41, 03-07-2008 »

I'm half-listening to Shots from the Hip on Radio 4 (I'm really working, honest!) and it's just occurred to me how rash it is to assume ones own memory is reliable - and how much rasher it is just to take the word of historians/journalists who might have an inflated sense of the importance of their own ideas.  They just interviewed a journalist (Caroline Coon?) who was reminiscing about being in at the start of the Pistols' career.  She seemed to be arguing that having a name like "The Sex Pistols' represented unprecedented audacity in 1975; but as a music journalist she must have been aware of Disco-Tex and the Sex-O-Lettes who not only had been around for some time but had at least one major hit in the year the Pistols were formed. 

Caroline Coon's  knowledege the black pop of the day = zero?** I dint think they were called sex pistols in 75 did she say that? I spose it was the violent connotations of pistols in tandem with sex that was controversial.
If it was her she called punk the hippies revenge or something which it did become partly, though wasn't in its proto state. A lot of the kids at the gigs then thought woodstock was a dog or something.

 
** the odd thing about early punk is  along with art students al ot of the early fans would have known about joe tex, a lot of the kids who went to say, the global village were in the punk audience as well. The press moulded it into their own image NME  -hip misery. Sounds -yobbishness.  MM -hippies revenge.
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