|
John W
|
 |
« Reply #75 on: 23:56:11, 10-01-2008 » |
|
And you do not own the internet John W Indeed, but I try to respect forum etiquette. Again your responses fail to acknowledge questions put to you. Anyway, I see attempts to talk again about Braxton, and I'll attempt again to watch the youtube linked by Richard John |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
richard barrett
|
|
« Reply #76 on: 00:01:02, 11-01-2008 » |
|
I'll attempt again to watch the youtube linked by Richard
Greenfox, why don't you do that too? It's only nine minutes long. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
greenfox
|
|
« Reply #77 on: 00:03:12, 11-01-2008 » |
|
Etiqueete, shmetiquette. I take my gloves off to deal with crap, and its as simple as that and nothing more than that: the point is I don't start the crap.
And I think to a large extent, free jazz is pretentious crap expressing a kind of moral derangement, treated like a Rorschach test by its adherents with fictitious imaginings as regards it significance, and a quasi shamanistic appreciation quite similar to the trance states produced by religious rituals and defended from criticism in a similar manner.
Why don't you watch the Waste Land clip Barrettt, and respond to what I said?
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
John W
|
|
« Reply #78 on: 00:09:17, 11-01-2008 » |
|
Well I succeeded in opening the youtube this time. I listened for 3mins 20secs, yeah I know things were really starting to happen at that point but it really did become intolerable at that point and if I was in the audience I'd be looking quizzically at everyone else. I don't understand the 'music'; I've heard similar before - only on Radio 3  but fail to understand this as jazz or a musical composition even if it has been written down. Hearing an orchestra tuning up is more interesting to my ears.  |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
greenfox
|
|
« Reply #79 on: 00:19:03, 11-01-2008 » |
|
All will be revealed http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/jazzlibrary/pip/848tx/- not. I think the adulation around Monsieur Braxton is somewhat suspicious. I went through musical-hero worship some years ago, just how many ol' greenfox will not disclose. But it concerned Jean-Jacques Burnel, Joe Strummer, and Paul Weller. Ol' greenfox was reading a jass book yesterday, referring to the "derangement of the senses" pertaining to free jass. Too much of a counter culture vibe, methinks, built not on something constructive and liberating but indeed, on "deranged senses". However, since like Ian Thurmwood (yes, I cruise the R3 jass bored but can't really see the point of posting there), I acknowledge that I have little experience of Monsieur Braxton. Friday man, Friday........be there or be ¬ I don't know of anyone who treats him with "adulation". I do know a lot of people (like me, in fact) who regard his music exactly as "constructive and liberating." Give it a listen.
No, I think you'll find those are the people who think it's constructive and liberating. They may well think its constructive and liberating Richard Barrett, but what they think is not what I think. He's being considered in very adulatory terms. I remain open in specific regard to the music itself, though if its like much of the free jazz idiom - cacophonous, discordant, screeching, noise for the sake of noise - I find that about as interesting as walking onto a building site and listening to industrial machinery, as pleasurable as a battered Mars bar which I've never had, and trying to be "constructive" like TS Eliot's poem The Wasteland, but actually writing unformed stuff like this: GGEIUFNNM!!, HHH!! KTT, NN! NN! AAAARGH! AAAARGH! GRRRT! I usually turn off Jez on R3 Friday nights, because that's mostly the kind of stuff he plays. And he's only on in the first place, at chez greenfox, because Alyn's come on before him. It will be interesting to see what Alyn makes of AB. So what you're saying is that you have no understanding of this kind of music, as strongly evidenced by your use of non-musical metaphors to describe it, such as building sites and random gibberish, and that therefore you find it suspicious that other people enjoy and admire it. Personally I wouldn't find the description "cacophonous, discordant, screeching, noise of the sake of noise" at all offputting and I might well sometimes use any or all of these words as terms of approbation, although I wouldn't use them to describe Anthony Braxton's music - but perhaps the continuation of this discussion ought to be postponed until you've heard it...? No, what I said is what I said, and I "understand" it perfectly well - in my terms. I noted the way this was being addressed (AB has a singular popularity at the R3 board) and stated my feeling about free jazz with which I am familiar and sure, the conversation will no doubt continue after the R3 show which I'm looking forward to: I'll finish what I started re. if it does indeed fit the characteristics of free jazz. It's just cheap rhetoric to say other people "don't understand", and rather boring with music which one simply likes or doesn't like, and that is that. Random arrangements of letters is not a bad comparison. If you understood the music you wouldn't dismiss it in such tired and ignorant terms. If you liked it you'd understand it. I'm afraid this documents the boring crap that's transpired here, that then fell a notch further into ad hominem sneering from which I'm not sure this can recover. I tried to initiate discussion here, encouraging people to listen to R3 which I certainly will and am looking forward to, though I'm not sure I will I post anything more here. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
richard barrett
|
|
« Reply #80 on: 00:21:03, 11-01-2008 » |
|
I'll attempt again to watch the youtube linked by Richard
Greenfox, why don't you do that too? It's only nine minutes long. free jazz is pretentious crap expressing a kind of moral derangement, treated like a Rorschach test by its adherents with fictitious imaginings as regards it significance, and a quasi shamanistic appreciation quite similar to the trance states produced by religious rituals and defended from criticism in a similar manner. I guess that's a "no" then, although as I said before Composition 98 isn't jazz, free or otherwise. I'm quite familiar with The Waste Land, thanks, and I wouldn't particularly take exception to what you said about it, viz.: its appraisal of society and culture in negative terms, as a time of decay and dissolution, and yet it does so with beautifully crafted poetry. ... although to me it comes across more as a symptom of the decay and dissolution Eliot purports to be dealing with, and specifically because it's so "beautifully crafted" in a rather traditional and self-satisfied sense. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
richard barrett
|
|
« Reply #81 on: 00:37:46, 11-01-2008 » |
|
Well I succeeded in opening the youtube this time. I listened for 3mins 20secs, yeah I know things were really starting to happen at that point but it really did become intolerable at that point and if I was in the audience I'd be looking quizzically at everyone else. I don't understand the 'music'; I've heard similar before - only on Radio 3 but fail to understand this as jazz or a musical composition even if it has been written down. Hearing an orchestra tuning up is more interesting to my ears. Well, John, you may be respecting forum etiquette but your putting the word "music" in quotation marks is kind of a prejudiced way of looking at things, isn't it? I think that if you'd looked quizzically around at the audience you'd have found some of them looking quizzically back at you, some of them off on unrelated thoughts of their own, and some concentrating on and following the flow of the music. Not everyone is going to "get" what's going on, and whether one does or not depends on personality, experience, open-mindedness and many other factors, but I hope you'll take it from me that what's going on there is a musical performance as structured, balanced, coherent, comprehensible and expressive as any other, more indeed than many. You (and maybe Greenfox too) probably have a fixed idea of what structure, balance, coherence, comprehensibility and expression in music are, which is by no means unusual, but others might let their ideas of those things be changed and "unfixed" through their musical experiences, and this, to return to a phrase used earlier, is "constructive and liberating". Does that make sense? Oh, and (for the third time) it isn't jazz. |
|
|
|
« Last Edit: 00:43:34, 11-01-2008 by richard barrett »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Morticia
|
|
« Reply #82 on: 00:57:11, 11-01-2008 » |
|
Not everyone is going to "get" what's going on, and whether one does or not depends on personality,
As a non-musician I probably didn`t "get" what was going on and missed the balance, structure etc., but ... my synasthesia went into overdrive. The shapes, colours and textures in the sounds. Absolutely amazing! That was some experience.... |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
richard barrett
|
|
« Reply #83 on: 01:01:27, 11-01-2008 » |
|
So you DID get what was going on! (it's not necessary to describe it in the sort of terms I was using, that's kind of part of my job, I'm a teacher too sometimes, you know  ) |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
John W
|
|
« Reply #84 on: 01:05:18, 11-01-2008 » |
|
richard, I don't see much wrong with my 'music' comment, intended to convey it's not within my understanding of what music is, but I do appreciate that it may offend, so see if I can keep a promise not to do it again.  So if it ain't jazz then what is it? I like putting names/genres to things so I know what we are talking about. New music has been around longer than other genres of music, it's no longer new, so what can we call it? The first 2.5 minutes were just playing notes and I just cannot comprehend what the audience would gain from those 2.5 mins. OK maybe they are not expected to gain anything. Noise like that to me does not deserve an audience and I'd be sitting there waiting for one of the musicians to just burst out laughing and say something - clearly the serious heads in the audience were not going to burst out laughing. I just cannot think of anything else to say at 1.00am John |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Bryn
|
|
« Reply #85 on: 01:17:16, 11-01-2008 » |
|
I'm a teacher with 3 university degrees, and think, criticise, and write for myself.
I'm a teacher with 3 university degrees, and think, criticise, and write for myself.
I'm a teacher with 3 university degrees, and think, criticise, and write for myself.
I'm a teacher with 3 university degrees, and think, criticise, and write for myself.
I'm a teacher with 3 university degrees, and think, criticise, and write for myself.
I'm a teacher with 3 university degrees, and think, criticise, and write for myself.
I'm a teacher with 3 university degrees, and think, criticise, and write for myself.
Are you totally deranged? What is there about the above that is "gentle mockery..part of the nature of this board...genuine requests for explanation or detail in answers to geunine[sic] questions"? I am entitled to not like free jazz, entitled to say why without arrogant denunciations there's something I "don't understand" followed with ad hominem derision, and both entitled and more than capable of recognising sniping and abuse and responding to it in kind and taking my gloves off to do so. It seems you are incapable of the "subject in question" Barrettt[sic], because you and a few others diverted from it - YOU, not me, matey. What? Cited nine times, twice rather movingly, and you complain. Some would give their eye teeth to be quoted nine times. Still, at least you know all about getting the third degree, if nothing about engaging in mutual respect when posting on an Internet forum. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Richard, thanks for posting the link. It must be around 20 years since I went through a period of listening to quite a lot of recordings made by AB. I must remember to save tomorrow night's programme. Can't remember what started me off listening to his stuff. Possibly something Veryan can be blamed for when he and I preceded your stint at Middlesex. |
|
|
|
« Last Edit: 01:20:10, 11-01-2008 by Bryn »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
richard barrett
|
|
« Reply #86 on: 01:22:16, 11-01-2008 » |
|
I don't see much wrong with my 'music' comment, intended to convey it's not within my understanding of what music is I think it's as well for all of us to understand that there are almost as many understandings of "what music is" as there are listeners... So if it ain't jazz then what is it? I like putting names/genres to things so I know what we are talking about. I don't think it's necessary to stick a label on something to know what one is talking about - more likely than not the label is going to get in the way of knowing that, rather than facilitating it, i think. The first 2.5 minutes were just playing notes and I just cannot comprehend what the audience would gain from those 2.5 mins. er, most music is just playing notes, isn't it? I suppose what you're saying is that these sounded to you like random notes. However, I can assure you that if they really were random, they would sound very different in relation to one another. A harmonic consistency is being set up there which is every bit as consistent as the harmonic consistency of any other music, but it has a different function, in this case to create a context for the gradually increasing interchange between notated music and free improvisation which subsequently takes flight but which you didn't have the patience to hear. Noise like that to me does not deserve an audience What was it you were saying about avoiding offending people? Some of us devote our entire lives and energies to what you call "noise" which "does not deserve an audience". Speaking for myself, I don't know what it means to "deserve an audience" but I do know what it means to have the commitment to pursue one's heartfelt artistic objectives whatever obstacles might seem to be in the way, in the interests of trying to realise and communicate a musical vision. I'm disappointed by your lack of respect for that in the case of Anthony Braxton, though I can't say I'm surprised.  |
|
|
|
« Last Edit: 01:28:03, 11-01-2008 by richard barrett »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
richard barrett
|
|
« Reply #87 on: 01:45:58, 11-01-2008 » |
|
Possibly something Veryan can be blamed for when he and I preceded your stint at Middlesex. Veryan Weston: is it jazz? Another impossible question. Without wishing to sound, ahem, adulatory: I used to listen to AB a lot in the 1980s, then didn't take much notice for a while, though I think the music of his I'd been listening to made a deep impression, since for example the music on that YouTube link (which I'm pretty sure is the performance that ended up on the record I used to have) sounded very satisfyingly familiar to me, exactly as I remembered it but more involving, since in the meantime I hope I've learned at least something about listening (specifically in connection with improvised music). Recently I've been trying to catch up (stimulated in part by a number of discussions at TOP, so thanks to Mr Improv, King Kennytone, Centrifuge and many others for that) and I realise (a) that in a sense this music has been with me all the intervening time, and (b) that in his recent work he's reached a point of culmination which puts him near the top of my personal list of important creative musicians, contemporary composers, whatever you like to call them. More recently he seems to have begun working with live electronics, which I find very exciting indeed, even if the example I've heard so far seems to be at the rudimentary and exploratory beginnings of this involvement, rather than presenting it as a fully-formed element of his musical "language". |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Michael
|
|
« Reply #88 on: 08:37:00, 11-01-2008 » |
|
Etiqueete, shmetiquette. I take my gloves off to deal with crap,
That's funny, I do the exact opposite when a Fox messes in my garden.  |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Ron Dough
|
|
« Reply #89 on: 09:59:35, 11-01-2008 » |
|
Does anybody else find this instant praise or dismissal dispiriting? First impressions aren't always reliable indicators of anything complex, be it people or creative work: most honest listeners will know that they've experienced damascene as well as emperor's new clothes moments with pieces (and people) that they've come to know more closely over time, and even more importantly that their own prejudices are, frankly, irrelevant to others, save perhaps as an indication of their personalities. Mantras based around "I don't like (or understand) x, ergo it's rubbish" are just begging to be challenged.
Most contributors here have developed wide-ranging tastes over many years, and in the main this board represents their aspirations towards celebration and further education: a realisation that for many, musical taste isn't a stasis but quite the opposite: an organic growth which may develop in surprising ways. In the same way that many pieces which seem immediately appealing soon reveal themselves to be shallow, much worthwhile music only reveals its full potential after considerable acquaintance, even though its first impression may be one of incomprehensibility: a situation that has pertained certainly since the late Beethoven quartets, and very possibly earlier.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
