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Author Topic: Cultural differences between nationalities  (Read 2539 times)
richard barrett
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« Reply #60 on: 13:34:28, 30-08-2008 »

What sort of inverted snobbery is it, if you work your socks off to achieve a doctorate and then object to being called by the title? 

I don't think being able to use an academic title is one of the reasons for doing a doctorate. Plus most of us work our socks off in all kinds of ways and neither expect nor receive any kind of honorific title for our pains.
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harmonyharmony
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« Reply #61 on: 13:37:24, 30-08-2008 »

What sort of inverted snobbery is it, if you work your socks off to achieve a doctorate and then object to being called by the title?

Best sort of course! Because it's mine!
Seriously though, one of the aspects which annoys me is when it occurs in an environment when you are working with colleagues who don't have PhDs. I think that over-emphasising the title can create a sense of division for the students that is unhelpful (and in both cases I mentioned, there is a definite over-emphasis). I don't see why my five years of study for my PhD gives me any more right to a new title than many other professional titles, let alone the confusion that can arise between a PhD and an MD. Finally, I believe that if the students don't respect me because of my teaching, then proof that I can submit a finished thesis (no matter how much work went into it) isn't going to get me any further.

Having said that, I prefer to be addressed as Mr Harmony or Dr Harmony by letter or over the phone, or in a professional (non-teaching) context. While I was working in customer services, I found it very difficult to judge titles for women. A misplaced (ahem) Miss or Mrs can offend, and Ms is no guarantee of steering clear of this minefield. In cases of confusion, where I had been given the full name, I would address them as 'Dear Milly Jones' [though inserting their own name of course], which looks even worse (to my eyes) but at least it avoided some of the pit-falls looming at my feet.

What sort of inverted snobbery is it, if you work your socks off to achieve a doctorate and then object to being called by the title? 

I don't think being able to use an academic title is one of the reasons for doing a doctorate. Plus most of us work our socks off in all kinds of ways and neither expect nor receive any kind of honorific title for our pains.

Precisely.
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Milly Jones
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« Reply #62 on: 13:38:31, 30-08-2008 »

It may not be the reason you did it - but why not accept it as it comes with the territory?
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harmonyharmony
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« Reply #63 on: 13:40:21, 30-08-2008 »

For the reasons stated above.
It says 'Dr' on my business card, on my office door and at the foot of my official letters and on my email signature.
It's not that I want to deny that it exists, merely that I find it a pointless distraction when it comes to dealing with students.
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'is this all we can do?'
anonymous student of the University of Berkeley, California quoted in H. Draper, 'The new student revolt' (New York: Grove Press, 1965)
http://www.myspace.com/itensemble
perfect wagnerite
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« Reply #64 on: 13:41:01, 30-08-2008 »

My sister-in-law, who is an academic in New Zealand, insists on being called "doctor", even on the envelope of christmas and birthday cards from her family.  This has caused her embarrassment on aircraft on a couple of occasions when cabin crew have asked whether she could help out a passenger who wasn't feeling terribly well, and had to explain that no, she wasn't that kind of doctor.  She has a so-far ill-founded theory that booking air tickets with the handle "Doctor" will get her an upgrade.

The only occasion on which I have ever sunk to putting my letters after my name was after we had a flood in the house a few years ago, and were dealing with a particularly snotty loss-adjuster who used to sign off her letters with "BA (Hons)" after her name.  In a petty act of retaliation (OK, it made me feel slightly better) I took to signing off mine with "MA (Oxon)". (This despite the disapproval of my wife who has a real MA, and has never quite come to terms with the Oxbridge MA racket).  

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Philidor
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« Reply #65 on: 13:41:25, 30-08-2008 »



 Grin
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Milly Jones
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« Reply #66 on: 13:45:00, 30-08-2008 »

What sort of inverted snobbery is it, if you work your socks off to achieve a doctorate and then object to being called by the title?

Best sort of course! Because it's mine!
Seriously though, one of the aspects which annoys me is when it occurs in an environment when you are working with colleagues who don't have PhDs. I think that over-emphasising the title can create a sense of division for the students that is unhelpful (and in both cases I mentioned, there is a definite over-emphasis). I don't see why my five years of study for my PhD gives me any more right to a new title than many other professional titles, let alone the confusion that can arise between a PhD and an MD. Finally, I believe that if the students don't respect me because of my teaching, then proof that I can submit a finished thesis (no matter how much work went into it) isn't going to get me any further.

Having said that, I prefer to be addressed as Mr Harmony or Dr Harmony by letter or over the phone, or in a professional (non-teaching) context. While I was working in customer services, I found it very difficult to judge titles for women. A misplaced (ahem) Miss or Mrs can offend, and Ms is no guarantee of steering clear of this minefield. In cases of confusion, where I had been given the full name, I would address them as 'Dear Milly Jones' [though inserting their own name of course], which looks even worse (to my eyes) but at least it avoided some of the pit-falls looming at my feet.

What sort of inverted snobbery is it, if you work your socks off to achieve a doctorate and then object to being called by the title? 

I don't think being able to use an academic title is one of the reasons for doing a doctorate. Plus most of us work our socks off in all kinds of ways and neither expect nor receive any kind of honorific title for our pains.

Precisely.

What utter tosh!   I think it gives people something to aim for.  Far from making people feel inferior, it should give them a goal to attain.

I loathe and detest this new attitude that nobody, no matter what they do, deserves more respect than anyone else for their achievements.  You even see it at schools, trying to drive out every form of competition whether it be on the sporting field or by bringing exam pass marks down to a level whereby you'd have to be the village idiot not to pass.   Everyone is not the same level and never will be. It's nothing to be ashamed about, nor embarrassed about.  It's something to be proud of.  
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richard barrett
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« Reply #67 on: 13:48:24, 30-08-2008 »

I loathe and detest this new attitude that nobody, no matter what they do, deserves more respect than anyone else for their achievements. 

Nobody is saying that, Milly. Look at it this way. I would certainly be of the opinion that what you, Milly Jones, do in terms of taking care of your family is at least as worthy of respact as doing a PhD, and I dare say hh would agree. My point is not that doctors and professors receive too much respect but that millions of other just-as-deserving people don't receive enough.
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #68 on: 13:52:10, 30-08-2008 »

One of my undergraduate lecturers, who incidentally failed one of my modules (saying that 'this sort of thing should not be encouraged!'
I'm rather curious to know what 'this sort of thing' was in this case?
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
Ian Pace
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« Reply #69 on: 13:58:39, 30-08-2008 »

The increasing disjunction between teaching and research in universities - likely to be exacerbated as a result of the next RAE funding review, which some believe may lead to a significant redistribution of research funding (so that the Russell Group of Universities will get the lion's share, and other institutions may have to cut down on research allocation) - may be connected to the questions about the value of a doctorate. In terms of being able to demonstrate the ability to do serious research on a high scholarly level, I do believe that the PhD is meaningful (there are specific honorary doctorates based on publication which aim to demonstrate the same for those who have done similar research, only not under the auspices of a PhD) and important. But it does not necessarily demonstrate anything in terms of teaching ability - is there any necessary reason why research and teaching abilities go hand in hand? In a university climate where standards required for undergraduate degrees seem to have to be lowered (to match a lowering of standards in secondary education, leaving students less qualified than hitherto when they enter university) the types of research that university lecturers may be engaged in is then also likely to become extremely remote from undergraduate's own intellectual worlds.
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
Milly Jones
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« Reply #70 on: 14:08:33, 30-08-2008 »

Thank you very much Richard.  Kiss I see what you mean, but to my mind, academic achievement deserves a different sort of respect that's all.  I'm by no means belittling anyone else who does a good job.  My titles are Mrs., mother and grandmother.  All those aspects of life are very worthy and I'm proud to be called Mrs., mother or grandmother.  Those are the titles.  So what's wrong with doctor if that title goes with the job?
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Philidor
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« Reply #71 on: 14:19:53, 30-08-2008 »

Do any TOP posters sign their posts with their former military titles?

TweedWearer - Major (Catering Corp) Rtrd.
FussyMustache - Captain (Stationery Supplies) Rtrd.
PerfectlyCataloguedCDCollection - Colonel (Puttee Stores HQ) Rtrd


Philidor
CSE French
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richard barrett
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Posts: 3123



« Reply #72 on: 15:06:16, 30-08-2008 »

Do any TOP posters sign their posts with their former military titles?

TweedWearer - Major (Catering Corp) Rtrd.
FussyMustache - Captain (Stationery Supplies) Rtrd.
PerfectlyCataloguedCDCollection - Colonel (Puttee Stores HQ) Rtrd


Philidor
CSE French

For someone who's so dismissive of TOP posters you certainly seem to post there rather a lot.   Huh
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Philidor
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« Reply #73 on: 15:38:55, 30-08-2008 »

Do any TOP posters sign their posts with their former military titles?

TweedWearer - Major (Catering Corp) Rtrd.
FussyMustache - Captain (Stationery Supplies) Rtrd.
PerfectlyCataloguedCDCollection - Colonel (Puttee Stores HQ) Rtrd


Philidor
CSE French

For someone who's so dismissive of TOP posters you certainly seem to post there rather a lot.   Huh

I'm not dismissive. The reverse in fact. There are numerous TOP posters who are obviously warm-hearted, clever, open-minded, friendly and highly experienced musicians. I like them very much. But others are authoritarian bigots with a line in cyber-abuse and UKIP stupidity. In other words, TOP is split, which is perfectly normal -- most bulletin boards are.

Do you post there yourself? I don't recall seeing your name.



Philidor
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Milly Jones
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« Reply #74 on: 15:45:58, 30-08-2008 »

Well Philidor, authoritarian bigots or not - I suppose that means anyone who doesn't agree with you - everyone is entitled to their opinion and also entitled to voice it. 
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