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Author Topic: Cultural differences between nationalities  (Read 2539 times)
perfect wagnerite
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« Reply #90 on: 18:30:10, 30-08-2008 »

Naffest of all is to have an honorary doctorate and use the title - I know of someone who does, and he is secretly ridiculed.

... or, as a former colleague of mine used to do, to have been a visiting professor and to continue to use the title long after his visit was over, as it were; once again, to the considerable amusement of the rest of us.
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At every one of these [classical] concerts in England you will find rows of weary people who are there, not because they really like classical music, but because they think they ought to like it. (Shaw, Don Juan in Hell)
martle
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« Reply #91 on: 18:31:57, 30-08-2008 »

I think professors get this because of the absent-mindedness which is part of the job description

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Green. Always green.
George Garnett
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« Reply #92 on: 18:47:18, 30-08-2008 »

As MabelJane isn't here to post Professor Branestawm the task falls to me:



                            


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strinasacchi
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« Reply #93 on: 19:37:37, 30-08-2008 »

One advantage of addressing someone in a letter with their full name ("Dear Milly Jones") is that you thereby avoid mistaking the gender of someone with an ambiguous or unfamiliar name.  I get called "Mr" a lot and it really annoys me.

I've found that people are much more ready to use first names (I avoid calling them "Christian" names because I'm not a christian and I don't want to assume that anyone else is either) in the UK than in the US.  I never would have called professors, violin teachers, friends' or boyfriends' parents, or even some bosses by their first names unless explicitly told to do so.  Over here most people seem shocked if you call them by anything but their first name - and usually a short or nickname version too, even if the person in question generally prefers their full name.  (For example I know a Christopher who hates being called Chris, but everyone calls him Chris and he's too polite/fed up/shy to correct them.)

And in the states it was perfectly normal to call a stranger "ma'am" or "sir" - it just seems more polite than shouting out "hey you," and slightly more specific than "excuse me" on its own, if you've seen someone has dropped something in the street or left something on a table.  But over here people seem afraid of those words, as if being polite, considerate and direct reinforces the iniquitous class system or something.

Oh, and the standard US formulation of asking for a drink in a bar is not "I"ll get a beer." It's "Could I get a beer" or "Gimme a beer."  Not much better.
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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #94 on: 20:30:30, 30-08-2008 »

Quote
  Over here most people seem shocked if you call them by anything but their first name - and usually a short or nickname version too, even if the person in question generally prefers their full name

Now that's a noticeable cultural difference. In Russia most conductors will use the full unshortened forename of players in rehearsal - "Alexander - a real sostenuto at bar 116, please" - and never "Sasha", "Galya", or "Lyosha". It's a mark of respect which the players appreciate.  (More cynically they may also appreciate the fact that the conductor actually knows their name Wink )
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
-  Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
perfect wagnerite
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« Reply #95 on: 20:40:44, 30-08-2008 »


And in the states it was perfectly normal to call a stranger "ma'am" or "sir" - it just seems more polite than shouting out "hey you," and slightly more specific than "excuse me" on its own, if you've seen someone has dropped something in the street or left something on a table.  But over here people seem afraid of those words, as if being polite, considerate and direct reinforces the iniquitous class system or something.


It's almost impossible in England to use "ma'am" or "sir" without an element of deference - the American usage is probably a rather purer use of the language that that obtaining in England (and I'd better not show my face at TOP after suggesting that one).

It is so much easier in Francophone countries, were one can address a stranger as "Monsieur" or "Madame" without any hint that one is anything other than an equal.  So civilised.
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At every one of these [classical] concerts in England you will find rows of weary people who are there, not because they really like classical music, but because they think they ought to like it. (Shaw, Don Juan in Hell)
increpatio
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« Reply #96 on: 20:52:26, 30-08-2008 »

On the topic of nicknames or abbreviated names, I've heard that they're especially common in Copenhagen...I remember reading some journal article once that was about a survey showing that of american students who spent a summer, or year, or whatever, in the netherlands at school, there was a strong correlation between the enjoyment of the students over the year, and their tendency to abbreviate their own names (when they were writing them down on the report) afterwards.  Which is interesting when one thinks about it.

Ah, here it is:
The Social Psychology of Name Change: Reflections on a Serendipitous Discovery
, # Darrel W. Drury and John D. McCarthy, Social Psychology Quarterly, Vol. 43, No. 3 (Sep., 1980), pp. 310-320

(will need a subscription though, alas).
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trained-pianist
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« Reply #97 on: 23:16:01, 30-08-2008 »

I understand how strinasacchi can feel annoyed at being called Mr.

When we arrived to the USA it took me several years to get used to the expression:
 Mr Mary and Bill Short. 

What I could not understand was how Mary could be Mr. I thought one should say Mrs and Mr Short. Or am I wrong?

On the topic of nick name Russian language has a few rivals. There could be so many different endings of endearment add to the end of the name and it can even be changed slightly. I understand that for foreign people reading for example, Tolstoy Anna Karenina, it can be confusing when Anna is called Anechka or Annushka or Annya beside the full name with patronymic.

Reiner, It is much better to be called Alexander rather then Sashka. They are probably happy that conductor doesn't call them names. In my time it was nothing for a teacher or conductor to scream on top of his/her voice:  "You, idiot (or fool), what do you think you are doing? Can't you count?"  May be it has changed now, but in my time conductors were all powerful and could call people any name they wanted. 

I agree with Dr Richard Barrett that professors are very forgetful lot and their vocabulary is not fully complete.
When we came to America Mr t-p could say many words from high mathematical theoretical journals, but he did not know what a bunch of radishes or a bunch of spring onions are. This deficiency was especially noticible at a supermarket check out counter when he and the clerk could not understand each other.
On the other hand I could say many things and understand what check out clerk said, but it was better not to ask me to spell anything. In fact it was dangerous.
« Last Edit: 09:03:52, 31-08-2008 by trained-pianist » Logged
Andy D
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« Reply #98 on: 23:33:01, 30-08-2008 »

What's even worse is Mrs Bill Short t-p. Presumably it dates from the days when women were owned by their husbands?

I must say that I feel quite awkward when someone I'm talking to face-to-face calls me Mr D..............

I dislike being called Andrew, but I don't correct people, I let them choose.

I was surprised the other day when my mother said that my brother had addressed her sister as "Auntie", I always call her Jo. I've always insisted that my nephew and niece call me Andy though my niece takes the piss sometimes by referring to me as "Uncle Andy".
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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #99 on: 02:39:44, 31-08-2008 »

Since we have been discussing the way servants are addressed....

... in the C19th, Russian servants would be addressed by a foreshortened version of their patronymic ("middle") name.  For example, if the butler's name were Alexander Ivanovich Grishkin, the Lady of the House would address him (quite correctly, within the social schema of that time) as "Ivanich".   (A great deal is made of this in Andrei Bely's "Petersburg", which makes translating the social nuances of a falling-apart-at-the-seams semi-feudal society rather complex).

This now-archaic usage is contemporarily used playfully between colleagues at work - so far so that I'm sometimes called "Johnich", even though I don't really have a patronymic name Smiley
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
-  Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
Philidor
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« Reply #100 on: 04:05:09, 31-08-2008 »

I'm new to TOP and new here but can see why TOP would split. The mix of Blimps and normal musicians/music lovers is highly unstable. I’m surprised there's not more blood on the wall.

You might be interested to have a look at this thread which was started soon after r3ok was set up.

Richard,

Thanks for that.  Cool  If I understand correctly: R3 management destroyed an online community in February 2007, with redesign, new posting rules and heavy modding. They did a U-turn in June 2007, reversed the redesign, relaxed the posting rules, and told the mods to pull their horns in. Correct?

This is telling:

Quote
posted by Chris - Radio 2 (U6737247) **, 5 Hours Ago

We appreciate that not every editorial decision the BBC makes will be to the liking of all our audience and people will want to express their views, but we don’t believe that message boards are the most effective way of giving general feedback about programmes and stations. There are a few reasons for this.

The first is that the message boards are not a formal BBC 'feedback route'. Because they are an open forum, people sometimes think that they are a good way to feedback to us, but decision-makers and executives don’t routinely read BBC message boards. They do read the complaints and comments that are delivered by the formal BBC feedback routes, and you'll always get a response by using them.

The BBC staff that read the message boards most frequently are the hosts. Usually they are staff who have other responsibilities (ranging from making programmes, building websites, or managing other community areas) and are not best placed to respond on behalf of programme teams or station management.

Again, the proper contact and feedback routes will usually get to the decision-maker directly and more quickly.

Finally, it is worth pointing out that it is usually the people that aren't happy that shout the loudest; it's always like this with feedback (when was the last time you were impassioned to the point of writing a strongly worded letter of praise?). If we allow message boards to be used for feedback about programmes, it tends to create a very negative vibe on the board, with a disproportionate amount of complaints and negative comments. We want our boards to be as inclusive and welcoming as possible, to engage as many people as possible, and many people are put off using message boards if the tone is relentlessly negative or they are full of repetitive complaints or conjecture.

I hope this helps clarify the situation.

Chris

I’d say R3 management didn’t know how to cope with a strong online community, so the instinct of some was to destroy it. I’ve seen the same when a trade union gets going in a non-unionised workplace. Some managers literally go bonkers. They’re so used to power flowing downwards through a strict hierarchy that when it starts flowing upwards (before collective bargaining structures are established or the union chased out) their world turns upside down. I suspect the old R3 cyber-community had that effect on some BBC managers.

This is odd:

Quote
<meta name="robots" content="nofollow">

Each R3 forum page -- there are thousands of them -- is tagged to keep out search engines. BBC management don’t want the message board debate indexed by Google. I wonder why?

The other point of tension is paid moderators on BBC employment contracts. When push comes to shove they’ll always do what their bosses tell them. They’ll act in the management’s interests, not the community’s. They’ll enforce their employment contracts or face disciplinary action.

On most forums power works differently. Mods have control of the ban and censorship buttons but they’re accountable, in part, to members. It’s usually bloody, but a bad mod can be got rid of (by members) a stupid ban/censorship policy changed (by members) and site structure modified (by members).

It looks as if you faced the situation in February 2007 of mods acting on instructions from above, which they were contractually obliged to obey, and members had no immediate control over management policy, mod behaviour or site structure. Given that background it’s amazing you won and the policy was reversed. Or would the policy have been reversed without this site? I doubt it. Everything the mods tried to censor on TOP was simply posted here, so the censorship was subverted and R3 management made to look silly (in Private Eye no less  Cheesy ).

It's a shame there's no dedicated modern music forum. Has that been lobbied for? What's the official argument against?


Philidor
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Robert Dahm
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« Reply #101 on: 04:45:30, 31-08-2008 »

One of the (relatively few) things that I love about Australia, and that make me proud to be an Australian, is the fiercely non-hierarchical nature of interaction. As a private citizen (ie: not as an employee in a service industry where you are required to address customers on a more formal basis) it is very rare to call somebody other than by their first name.

To an extent, I get the impression that inherited class is emerging very quickly here, so things might change. Interestingly, though, London was the first place I'd ever been where I felt like there were certain places/establishments that were off-limits to 'people like me'.
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trained-pianist
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« Reply #102 on: 04:53:12, 31-08-2008 »

Robert Dahm,
It is very interesting to know more about Australia. I was told that Californian culture is very close to Australian. I don't know myself because I never visited Australia. They certainly have similar climate.

Reiner,
 I don't know this book by A. Belyi "Peterburg".  I remember reading about him in different books, but nothing stayed in my mind.

About patronymic you probably know yourself that people in villages, who know each other very well often drop Christian name of a person they are in conversation with. It is some kind of expression of endearment. 
This tradition is picked up by people that you are talking about (intelligensia). They drop the Christian name in favour of patronymic and use it in a special endearing way.

George Garnett, You have a good picture of stereotipical professor. Thank you for posting him.
« Last Edit: 09:00:11, 31-08-2008 by trained-pianist » Logged
Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #103 on: 10:25:08, 31-08-2008 »

Reiner,
 I don't know this book by A. Belyi "Peterburg".  I remember reading about him in different books, but nothing stayed in my mind.


Oh, you'd enjoy this book, I think!  It's a real literary achievement of the pre-revolutionary decades, first published in 1913.  It deals with how a young anarchist is recruited for a political assassination - the target turns out to be his own father.  But the book is perhaps more remarkable for the extraordinary written style - the "stream of consciousness" approach and semi-poetic prose style.  In some ways it's similar to Khlebnikov?   You can download the complete original text in Russian here (in .zip format, you'd need the - free - program WinZip to open the file) - http://sheba.spb.ru/lit/d20/r215.zip

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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
-  Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
trained-pianist
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« Reply #104 on: 10:35:38, 31-08-2008 »

Thank you, Reiner,

Have a good trip.
Our friend promised to come to fix mobile phone (I forgot it home last evening)
He has an interesting book to read, but I could not get it from the net. He is going to help. We will see if you know it.

Safe journey for now,


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