The Radio 3 Boards Forum from myforum365.com
11:17:26, 01-12-2008 *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Whilst we happily welcome all genuine applications to our forum, there may be times when we need to suspend registration temporarily, for example when suffering attacks of spam.
 If you want to join us but find that the temporary suspension has been activated, please try again later.
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register  

Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 ... 7
  Print  
Author Topic: Ulysses - James Joyce  (Read 1578 times)
harmonyharmony
*****
Posts: 4080



WWW
« Reply #30 on: 14:20:07, 15-09-2008 »

Given the rise in interest in oral cultures (steady) from poets like Yeats and Pound around the same time, it seems unlikely that Joyce was unaware of the Odyssey's original form, and I'd think (from what I remember of the text) that certain passages are definitely designed to create a certain sound rather than a certain look. I don't deny that the book is written to be read with the eyes rather than the ears, but I do think that the bardic tradition is also vital to (at the very least) its composition.

I'm just curious to know whether any of it was ever recited by Joyce at (for example) Shakespeare & co while it was being serialised (same goes for work in progress (the work that became Finnegans Wake) I suppose) and whether he had any opinions on the matter.
Logged

'is this all we can do?'
anonymous student of the University of Berkeley, California quoted in H. Draper, 'The new student revolt' (New York: Grove Press, 1965)
http://www.myspace.com/itensemble
...trj...
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 518


Awanturnik


WWW
« Reply #31 on: 14:50:47, 15-09-2008 »

It turns out that copyright protection for the first-edition text of Ulysses has expired in most of the world (that is in 1986).

I'm not sure, but I think that changes in copyright law mean that the text is under copyright (in the UK at least) until 75 years after the author's death (i.e. 2011).
Yes. EU copyright law seems to have changed since then. I don't know enough about this to quote chapter and verse but it seems to have happened sometime around 1998. It's not 75 years though, it's 70 which means that the copyright on Ulysses in 2006. Gosh. Is that true? Can I now set Joyce without fear of reprisals?

(I'd check on all that before you go setting any large chunks of Ulysses, hh - there'll be complications  Wink. For a start, it's not necessarily the case that the updated copyright legislation applies retrospectively to works that have already had their copyright terms determined - by dint of being written before the law was passed, eg. Secondly, it's an Irish book, so I don't know how Irish law, EU law and British law would intersect on this. And thirdly, Ulysses is the sort of book that has had some pretty hefty editorial work done to it, so be careful that those later editions aren't classed as copyrighted works in their own right.)
Logged

harmonyharmony
*****
Posts: 4080



WWW
« Reply #32 on: 14:55:17, 15-09-2008 »

It turns out that copyright protection for the first-edition text of Ulysses has expired in most of the world (that is in 1986).

I'm not sure, but I think that changes in copyright law mean that the text is under copyright (in the UK at least) until 75 years after the author's death (i.e. 2011).
Yes. EU copyright law seems to have changed since then. I don't know enough about this to quote chapter and verse but it seems to have happened sometime around 1998. It's not 75 years though, it's 70 which means that the copyright on Ulysses in 2006. Gosh. Is that true? Can I now set Joyce without fear of reprisals?

(I'd check on all that before you go setting any large chunks of Ulysses, hh - there'll be complications  Wink. For a start, it's not necessarily the case that the updated copyright legislation applies retrospectively to works that have already had their copyright terms determined - by dint of being written before the law was passed, eg. Secondly, it's an Irish book, so I don't know how Irish law, EU law and British law would intersect on this. And thirdly, Ulysses is the sort of book that has had some pretty hefty editorial work done to it, so be careful that those later editions aren't classed as copyrighted works in their own right.)

Hmm yes. Thanks trj. I find copyright law makes my head hurt.
Logged

'is this all we can do?'
anonymous student of the University of Berkeley, California quoted in H. Draper, 'The new student revolt' (New York: Grove Press, 1965)
http://www.myspace.com/itensemble
time_is_now
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 4653



« Reply #33 on: 15:02:44, 15-09-2008 »

For a start, it's not necessarily the case that the updated copyright legislation applies retrospectively to works that have already had their copyright terms determined - by dint of being written before the law was passed, eg.
Joyce's copyright would never have extended beyond 2011 under any earlier copyright legislation, though, would it? So once the 70-year term is expired in 2011 I imagine we'll start to see a great wide riverrun (excuse the pun) of Joyce settings. Roll Eyes

Quote
Ulysses is the sort of book that has had some pretty hefty editorial work done to it, so be careful that those later editions aren't classed as copyrighted works in their own right.
That's true. It should be added, though, that the 1984 'scholarly edition' t-p mentioned in her first post is far from uncontroversial, and most scholars prefer to return to an earlier text (as did Penguin when they returned to the 1960 edition for their 1992 Penguin Classics reissue).
« Last Edit: 17:32:57, 15-09-2008 by time_is_now » Logged

The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
Tantris
***
Posts: 152



« Reply #34 on: 16:19:58, 15-09-2008 »

... I'd think (from what I remember of the text) that certain passages are definitely designed to create a certain sound rather than a certain look. I don't deny that the book is written to be read with the eyes rather than the ears, but I do think that the bardic tradition is also vital to (at the very least) its composition.

I'm just curious to know whether any of it was ever recited by Joyce at (for example) Shakespeare & co while it was being serialised (same goes for work in progress (the work that became Finnegans Wake) I suppose) and whether he had any opinions on the matter.

There are recordings of Joyce reading parts of both Ulysses and Finnegans Wake. There are several references (in his letters, for example) which indicate that he understood how the text would respond well to being read out loud. It's the only way to get through most of Finnegans Wake, to be sure.
Logged
oliver sudden
Admin/Moderator Group
*****
Posts: 6411



« Reply #35 on: 16:24:13, 15-09-2008 »

to create a certain sound rather than a certain look
Perhaps not so much 'rather than' as 'as well as'? I'm pretty sure the kind of friction that results from inwardly voicing what looks like utter gibberish to find out that perfectly comprehensible words are hidden under it (often several at once, of course, and in several languages at that) isn't something that happens by accident...
Logged
pim_derks
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 1518



« Reply #36 on: 19:07:31, 15-09-2008 »

Pim, judging by your command of English now (and taking into account your nation's generally accepted expertise in foreign languages) I'm guessing that your grasp of English at sixteen was perhaps considerably more advanced than that of many British readers of the same age.  Wink

Embarrassed

I hasten to add that I first read Ulysses that same year in John Vandenbergh's underrated Dutch translation. I was a huge fan of James Joyce when I was sixteen but I never reread his book since then. I used to be very interested in experimental literature (and music).
Logged

"People hate anything well made. It gives them a guilty conscience." John Betjeman
IgnorantRockFan
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 794



WWW
« Reply #37 on: 19:09:00, 15-09-2008 »

I have never read Jane Eyre because people told me I should...

But you really should  Wink

Logged

Allegro, ma non tanto
oliver sudden
Admin/Moderator Group
*****
Posts: 6411



« Reply #38 on: 19:09:22, 15-09-2008 »

Pim, judging by your command of English now (and taking into account your nation's generally accepted expertise in foreign languages) I'm guessing that your grasp of English at sixteen was perhaps considerably more advanced than that of many British readers of the same age.  Wink

Embarrassed

I hasten to add that I first read Ulysses that same year in John Vandenbergh's underrated Dutch translation. I was a huge fan of James Joyce when I was sixteen but I never reread his book since then. I used to be very interested in experimental literature (and music).
I was going to ask when you first read it in Dutch but thought that would be a silly question!
Logged
pim_derks
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 1518



« Reply #39 on: 19:14:39, 15-09-2008 »

Has anyone heard this:
?

No, never heard that one, harmony.

I once heard a few chapters from Ulysses adapted for radio in Ireland (in the early 1980s, I believe). It was very good. I would love to have that production on disc but I don't know if it was ever commercially issued.
Logged

"People hate anything well made. It gives them a guilty conscience." John Betjeman
Ron Dough
Admin/Moderator Group
*****
Posts: 5133



WWW
« Reply #40 on: 19:19:21, 15-09-2008 »

Is now the time to mention Anthony (Clockwork Orange) Burgess's Blooms of Dublin, an operetta on the subject, first broadcast on R3 in 1982?
Logged
Sydney Grew
Guest
« Reply #41 on: 13:08:16, 16-09-2008 »

I will try to read one more page. It is not that difficult so far. I don't want to start from the middle. May be my friend's idea is not that good.

This short excerpt from the long chapter entitled "Analysis of the Mind of James Joyce" in Book One ("The Revolutionary Simpleton") of Wyndham Lewis's "Time and Western Man" will tell Members we think all they need to know about Joyce:

"One of the main preoccupations of the hero of Ulysses is that arising from the ravages of the gentleman-complex - the Is he or isn't he a gentleman? - the phantom index-finger of the old shabby-genteel typical query pursuing the author. In this instance, as he is not writing about himself, we are given to understand that the figure in question is not. His gargantuan villain-of-the-piece is not even allowed to be very closely connected with the noble de Trop Bloggs. But the implicit theme of the entire piece, what moves Joyce to churn up the English tongue in a mock-Elizabethan frenzy, is the burning question still of his shabby-genteel boyhood, namely, To be a 'toff,' or not to be a 'toff.'

"In the respectable, more secluded corners of the Anglo-Saxon world, every one has at some time met keepers of tiny general-shops in provincial towns, char-ladies, faded old women in lodging-houses, and so on, whose main hold on life appears to be the belief that they have seen better days; and that really, if every one had their due, they, like their distant relatives, the de Bloggs, would be rolling in their Royces, and Ritzing it with the best. Because we do not usually associate this strange delusion with eminent authors, that is not a reason why, nevertheless, they should not be secretly haunted by it; especially if, as with Joyce, they issue from a similar shabby-gentility and provincial snobbishness. In spite of this necessary reflection it is always with a fresh astonishment that you come upon this faded, cheerless subject-matter."

We do not recommend the book Madame Pianiste since reading it - or at least more than a page or two - could not conceivably be a pleasure for any one at all.
Logged
trained-pianist
*****
Posts: 5455



« Reply #42 on: 14:26:28, 16-09-2008 »

Thank you Mr Sydney Grew,
This post was very interesting for me to read.
I had to look several words in a dictionary and I don't understand every little detail, but I understand the idea.
I got the explanation of the word toff from the dictionary:

Noun
Brit slang a well-dressed or upper-class person [perhaps from tuft, nickname for a titled student at Oxford University wearing a cap with a gold tassel].
The chapter in Wyndham Lewis's book  "Time and Western Man"  is very interesting judging by the title and topic of it.
I don't have as much time now to read it, but with time I am going to do it.

I am reading the second page of Ulysses. I find that sounds of words that Joyce is chosing are so beautiful. Most phrases have double meaning and there is a lot of humour in it too. I feel that I want to say the words loudly, but I don't.
The first sentence on the second page is beautiful: "He pointed his finger in friendly jest and went over to the parapet, laughing to himself."

This sounds like poetry to me. Also later he says that Malachi Mulligan's name sounds like two dactyls. And has Hellenic ring to it. I love the way Joyce's mind works: associations, finding beautiful soudns in words, humour. He is really special writer, sophisticated in a nice sort of way.

Later he talks about Haines. I don't know who this character is.
Buck Mulligan calls him"A ponderous Saxon. He thinks you're not a gentleman. God, these bloody English! Bursting with money and indigestion. Because he comes from Exford.
I love second page of the book very much. 

P.S. I have a problem with the word chose. I am not sure if I need choose. I have noone here to ask at the moment.
Logged
Bryn
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 3002



« Reply #43 on: 14:32:12, 16-09-2008 »

t-p, just wait 'till you get to:

"Bronze by gold heard the hoofirons, steelyrining imperthnthn thnthnthn.
Chips, picking chips off rocky thumbnail, chips. Horrid! And gold flushed more.
A husky fifenote blew.
Blew. Blue bloom is on the
Gold pinnacled hair.
A jumping rose on satiny breasts of satin, rose of Castille.
Trilling, trilling: I dolores.
Peep! Who's in the... peepofgold?
Tink cried to bronze in pity.
And a call, pure, long and throbbing. Longindying call.
Decoy. Soft word. But look! The bright stars fade. O rose! Notes chirruping answer.
Castille. The morn is breaking.
Jingle jingle jaunted jingling.
Coin rang. Clock clacked.
Avowal. Sonnez. I could. Rebound of garter. Not leave thee. Smack. La cloche! Thigh smack. Avowal. Warm. Sweetheart, goodbye!
Jingle. Bloo.
Boomed crashing chords. When love absorbs. War! War! The tympanum.
A sail! A veil awave upon the waves.
Lost. Throstle fluted. All is lost now.
Horn. Hawhorn.
When first he saw. Alas!
Full tup. Full throb.
Warbling. Ah, lure! Alluring.
Martha! Come!
Clapclop. Clipclap. Clappyclap.
Goodgod henev erheard inall.
Deaf bald Pat brought pad knife took up.
A moonlight nightcall: far: far.
I feel so sad. P. S. So lonely blooming.
Listen!
The spiked and winding cold seahorn. Have you the?
Each and for other plash and silent roar.
Pearls: when she.
Liszt's rhapsodies.
Hissss."

Berio's treatment of it is a joy to the ear too.
Logged
trained-pianist
*****
Posts: 5455



« Reply #44 on: 15:04:54, 16-09-2008 »

Thank you, Bryn, for that.
Joyce did have a musical ear, definately. How can one hear music in words? I don't think I know another writer who is that good with words (I include poets that I know  in my language).
Logged
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 ... 7
  Print  
 
Jump to: