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Author Topic: Poetry Appreciation Thread.  (Read 19823 times)
trained-pianist
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« Reply #375 on: 22:02:34, 25-01-2008 »

For me Shakespeare  is a puzzle. Usually I am not sure if what I understand is being said is a product of my imagination or indeed that what he meant. I am lucky if understand a few lines in a Sonnet. 

I love the beginning of this Sonnet 94. It is good when powerful people who decide to cut Departments in half will understand that people will be hurt (or something like that) or that people in position of power are good natured and caring.

Also the last two lines suggest to me that peole that look nice and sweet sometimes are nasty (lily when they decay smells worse than weeds).

Don Basilio, Do you think that writers of today are more independent and don't have to gravel as much as in Shakespeare's time?


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time_is_now
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« Reply #376 on: 22:08:08, 25-01-2008 »

Sonnet 94
They that have power to hurt and will do none,
That do not do the thing they most do show,
Who, moving others, are themselves as stone,
Unmoved, cold, and to temptation slow,
They rightly do inherit heaven's graces
And husband nature's riches from expense;
They are the lords and owners of their faces,
Others but stewards of their excellence.
The summer's flower is to the summer sweet,
Though to itself it only live and die,
But if that flower with base infection meet,
The basest weed outbraves his dignity:
For sweetest things turn sourest by their deeds;
Lilies that fester smell far worse than weeds.
It's a sort of better version of Kipling's 'If'. Wink
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
Don Basilio
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« Reply #377 on: 22:14:38, 25-01-2008 »

We went to see "Much Ado About Nothing" last week at the National Theatre, London, and I was struck again with Shakespeare how much I recognise the quotes.  Again and again in Shakespeare there are phrases I recognise, "Lilies that fester" is the one in your sonnet - I didn't know it was Shakespeare.)  It is very difficult for me, as an Englishman, to see what is individual in him, because his phrases are so much a part of my knowledge of language.

Does he grovel?  It is not obvious in the plays, where we only hear dramatic characters.  Since the romantics, artists are meant to be awkward and independent, but that is not always a good idea to my mind.
« Last Edit: 22:36:16, 25-01-2008 by Don Basilio » Logged

To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven.
A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
Don Basilio
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« Reply #378 on: 22:15:36, 25-01-2008 »

It's a sort of better version of Kipling's 'If'. Wink

With which Michael began this thread!
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To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven.
A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
trained-pianist
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« Reply #379 on: 22:23:13, 25-01-2008 »

I forgot about this poem I liked it very much. That Kipling I understand. I know what he is talking about.
In Shakespear I have to think hard and even with that don't know for sure what he is talking about.  Even if one understand all the words it is difficult to understand the meaning.
But Milton is even more difficult to understand.
I know that all is easy for gifted people like t-i-n or don Basilio.
Kipling:
Or, being hated, don't give way to hating,
And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise;

I find this is very hard to do. I did succumbed to anger. I suppose we have to work on ourselves to improve us all our lives.
That Kipling poem is very good indeed.
« Last Edit: 22:29:32, 25-01-2008 by trained-pianist » Logged
Don Basilio
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« Reply #380 on: 22:33:19, 25-01-2008 »

tp -

There are gifts differing - English is my first and only language and I can pick up on the subtleties.  I have not a hope of understanding in another language in any detail or expressing myself with more ability than a four year old.  You are far more gifted linguistically than I am.

T-i-n is a clever lad and nice guy, as we all know (even though like Milton he went to Cambridge) and he understands contemporary English poetry in a way that make me feel very old fashioned.

Don't worry about not understanding Milton: as I say he is not very fashionable, and he was not a fun person.
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To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven.
A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
trained-pianist
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« Reply #381 on: 22:40:18, 25-01-2008 »

Don Basilio,
You are so nice, that you made me cry.  Cry    Wink Wink Wink
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strinasacchi
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« Reply #382 on: 23:17:32, 25-01-2008 »

Milton isn't all solemn impenetrability.  Here's a warm and relaxed poem of his to help get through a blustery January night:

Song On May Morning

Now the bright morning Star, Dayes harbinger,
Comes dancing from the East, and leads with her
The Flowry May, who from her green lap throws
The yellow Cowslip, and the pale Primrose.
Hail bounteous May that dost inspire
Mirth and youth, and warm desire,
Woods and Groves, are of thy dressing,
Hill and Dale, doth boast thy blessing.
Thus we salute thee with our early Song,
And welcom thee, and wish thee long.
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trained-pianist
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« Reply #383 on: 09:25:19, 26-01-2008 »

strinasachi,
It is a beautiful poem indeed. I am compying it in my diary. At least I will know one Milton poem. He is such a poetic soul: (Star is dancing from the East and brings Flowry May).

It takes so much time to learn to play violin on this level. I don't know how you could find time for anything else. Here I have a violinist who is good, but still has problems with pitching (Sorry, this is for another thread), and  he has no time for anything else, but practice and work.
I am going to surprise him with this poem next time before our rehearsal.
It is strange that when he plays even a little out of tune it sounds like whining to me.
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Don Basilio
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« Reply #384 on: 12:03:20, 26-01-2008 »

And just to show I know Milton wasn't a horrible sexist really, here is his sonnet on his dead wife.  tp - the point about the last line is that Milton was blind, so when he woke from his dream, he was back in night.

Methought I saw my late espoused saint
Brought to me like Alcestis from the grave,
Whom Jove's great son to her glad husband gave,
Rescued from Death by force, though pale and faint.
Mine, as whom washed from spot of childbed taint
Purification in the Old Law did save,
And such as yet once more I trust to have
Full sight of her in Heaven without restraint,
Came vested all in white, pure as her mind.
Her face was veiled; yet to my fancied sight
Love, sweetness, goodness, in her person shined
So clear as in no face with more delight.
But, oh! as to embrace me she inclined,
I waked, she fled, and day brought back my night.
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To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven.
A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
oliver sudden
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« Reply #385 on: 12:14:01, 26-01-2008 »

Even without knowing that (as I didn't) there's a rather striking recall of Shakespeare's Sonnet 43, no?

...all days are nights to see till I see thee
And nights bright days till dreams do show thee me.
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time_is_now
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« Reply #386 on: 12:56:27, 26-01-2008 »

Milton was blind, so when he woke from his dream, he was back in night.
Yes, and incidentally, Milton's another poetic precursor referred to in Eliot's Four Quartets, in the lines:

When I think of a king at nightfall
Or of one who died blind and quiet,
Why should we [??worship] these dead men more than the dying?
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
Don Basilio
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Era solo un mio sospetto


« Reply #387 on: 13:06:24, 26-01-2008 »

tp - do you know Wordsworth?  I wonder if you know

She dwelt among the untrodden ways
Beside the springs of Dove,
A Maid whom there were none to praise
And very few to love:

A violet by a mossy stone
Half hidden from the eye!
Fair as a star, when only one
Is shining in the sky.

She lived unknown, and few could know
When Lucy ceased to be;
But she is in her grave, and, oh,
The difference to me!

(The River Dove is in Derbyshire.)

I can't think of any musical settings of Wordsworth.  I'm sure there must be some.
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To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven.
A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
oliver sudden
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« Reply #388 on: 14:10:28, 26-01-2008 »

Why should we [??worship] these dead men more than the dying?

There's this thing called Google, tinners, which lets you - oh never mind...

Sin is Behovely, but
All shall be well, and
All manner of thing shall be well.
If I think, again, of this place,
And of people, not wholly commendable,
Of no immediate kin or kindness,
But of some peculiar genius,
All touched by a common genius,
United in the strife which divided them;
If I think of a king at nightfall,
Of three men, and more, on the scaffold
And a few who died forgotten
In other places, here and abroad,
And of one who died blind and quiet
Why should we celebrate
These dead men more than the dying?
It is not to ring the bell backward
Nor is it an incantation
To summon the spectre of a Rose.
We cannot revive old factions
We cannot restore old policies
Or follow an antique drum.
These men, and those who opposed them
And those whom they opposed
Accept the constitution of silence
And are folded in a single party.
Whatever we inherit from the fortunate
We have taken from the defeated
What they had to leave us—a symbol:
A symbol perfected in death.
And all shall be well and
All manner of thing shall be well
By the purification of the motive
In the ground of our beseeching.
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Don Basilio
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« Reply #389 on: 14:17:13, 26-01-2008 »

I think that's pretty lovely, ollie, and as far as I can make out, wise.

The tag about "all shall be well" is from Julian of Norwich who has become much better known since Eliot.  It came to her in her visions, and can be used very, very tritely.  I don't think it is with Eliot here, as he is acknowledging the utter mess of history, particularly the English Civil War.
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To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven.
A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
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