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Author Topic: Music Periodicals  (Read 4296 times)
Ian Pace
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« Reply #15 on: 00:16:34, 15-07-2007 »

Are we having another 'bash musicology' bout? Wink
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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« Reply #16 on: 00:19:58, 15-07-2007 »

Are we having another 'bash musicology' bout? Wink

Oh, certainly not on my part.  Was reading an article about Scriabin's voice-leading that didn't exactly strike me as being particularly revelatory today.  But still enjoyed it. Am generally much more likely to browse music journals than mathematical ones. (blogs nowadays seem to be a better source of random mathematics).
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #17 on: 00:29:32, 15-07-2007 »

Musicology seems to have suffered from a bad conscience in the UK - being often somewhat apologetic in its scholarship, aspiring more to the status of journalism. But I think it didn't exist as a university subject in the UK until after 1945; similarly with the tradition of the amateur critic, the values of which seem to have remained for some time after it became a professional occupation. But things have got better in recent years overall. Still, there wasn't a serious musicological journal to do with new music in the UK until very recently (Tempo, The Musical Times and Contemporary Music Review don't count, at least as far as the RAE are concerned). Interestingly, a much more high-powered level of musicology seems to be normal in the US, but there there was a strong influence of German traditions (from where musicology essentially emerges). The nineteenth-century is a very under-represented area, overall, in British scholarship, other than in terms of British music from that period.
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
richard barrett
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« Reply #18 on: 00:53:01, 15-07-2007 »

The thing about musicology, of the kind practised in the "serious" journals, is that its readership consists almost entirely of musicologists. I can see how it serves and perpetuates that little industry, but other than that most of it seems to me to have very little point. Most of the few occasions I've consulted a musicological article have been occasioned by coming across some writing on music I'm interested in, and wondering what the author has to say about it. As often as not, though, the author doesn't seem particularly interested in the music in question, and their analyses vary between tautology and obscure jargon. Perhaps they should now and again be compelled to write an article or two for a general readership, in order to get a feeling for what actually saying something consists of.
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #19 on: 01:23:22, 15-07-2007 »

The thing about musicology, of the kind practised in the "serious" journals, is that its readership consists almost entirely of musicologists. I can see how it serves and perpetuates that little industry, but other than that most of it seems to me to have very little point. Most of the few occasions I've consulted a musicological article have been occasioned by coming across some writing on music I'm interested in, and wondering what the author has to say about it. As often as not, though, the author doesn't seem particularly interested in the music in question, and their analyses vary between tautology and obscure jargon. Perhaps they should now and again be compelled to write an article or two for a general readership, in order to get a feeling for what actually saying something consists of.

I know the type of writing you are referring to of course, and there is plenty of it, but wouldn't accept that this accounts for the whole of the profession. Problems come from the very structure of the profession, with the pressure to publish at all costs and gain RAE points that way, regardless of the value or otherwise of the subject. And jargon itself entails a certain 'cultural capital' within the profession; ironically it is especially prevalent amongst the New Musicology, one of whose professed aims is to take music outside of the narrow confines of the academy. There is, I believe, much of value to be discerned through bringing the ideas and methods of Adorno, Bourdieu, Jameson, and numerous others into the study of the music; the problem is that many do so just by citing their jargon in a tokenistic manner, and from a cursory reading of these figures and their work (sometimes just based upon secondary literature). At this point time for a plug for a forthcoming book on 'Music and Critical Theory' which I'm co-editing (but that'll be a while in the making)... Wink

But in terms of the relevance of the work, this is a subject I've been debating a bit with the editor of another book in which I have an article relating in part to this subject. He points out, and reasonably, that ultimately people get their information on music from somewhere, a book on a composer, or so on - and conservatory teachers and quite a few performers and composers do learn this way. And at least indirectly, detailed musicological work does feed into this process. With areas of study such as performance practice or preparation of editions, the applications of the work to wider musical life should be self-evident. But other musicological work can be valuable as well to both composers and performers wishing to understand the music they play or learn from better, sometimes in terms of its cultural context and wider meanings (a major area of study for musicologists today).  Even if someone simply reads a quite general biography of study of the music of a composer, if it is a sound work it will hopefully have drawn upon detailed musicological scholarship. And in terms of institutional decisions on what music is commissioned, performed, taught (including taught at universities), the ongoing debates on such subjects that are conducted in musicological circles can impact upon these things. As I said before, the articles in musicological journals are frequently very specialised and as such less accessible to those who don't already have a high degree of knowledge of the subject. But there are real standards of scholarly truth and argumentative rigour that exist in musicology that certainly don't in the more journalistic style of writing on music. And increasingly a demand that one should do more than simply write fawning hagiographies of composers, of which there are far too many unedifying examples, but rather try and examine a composer and their work in some wider context rather than just uncritically adopting the composer's own assumptions upon things. I tend to steer clear of much of the more journalistic writings nowadays, because I find them so shallow in this respect. In terms of my own areas - 19th and 20th century music, performance practice, music and society and aesthetic issues - there has been very important work in several languages in recent years. And as far as new music is concerned, now that I'm more able to read some of the German writings on the composers concerned (and not just on German composers - for example there is a range of very interesting work on Nono in German, and next to nothing of any consequence in English), I feel a much deeper understanding of the music and its context than before, which is of benefit in playing it or simply if one is interested in it as cultural documents as well as simply autonomous 'works of art'. If we believe that the study of history is important (and scholarly work on that is often very specialised and inaccessible to non-historians), then surely cultural history (which at the conference I've just been at, was certainly all the rage) is important as well?
« Last Edit: 01:27:49, 15-07-2007 by Ian Pace » Logged

'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
richard barrett
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« Reply #20 on: 01:36:18, 15-07-2007 »

ultimately people get their information on music from somewhere, a book on a composer, or so on - and conservatory teachers and quite a few performers and composers do learn this way
I believe scores, performances and recordings can also have their uses in this regard.

I take your point about serious scholarship standing behind anything authoritative one might read about music though.
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increpatio
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« Reply #21 on: 01:45:28, 15-07-2007 »

Perhaps they should now and again be compelled to write an article or two for a general readership, in order to get a feeling for what actually saying something consists of.

Time to invest in a set of electric cattle-prods methinks.  (this is, of course, what abstracts and introductions *should* do).

I've rarely had any real trouble reading what few musicological articles in journals I do look at myself (or: at least from getting *something* from most things I read, which is all I really ask for).  They tend to be pretty strict, old-fashioned formal analyses though, so.
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #22 on: 01:52:44, 15-07-2007 »

As far as 'saying something' is concerned, there's a much greater lack of that in musical journalism, I'd say. Or, when something is 'said', it's often of a truly banal nature. And in the better journals, wilful jargon masquerading a lack of content can usually be spotted and weeded out by the peer reviewers at best. Not always, but at least sometimes.

We wouldn't have a problem with work on rocket science or quantum physics only being read by other rocket scientists or quantum physicists, would we?
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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« Reply #23 on: 02:00:24, 15-07-2007 »

As far as 'saying something' is concerned, there's a much greater lack of that in musical journalism, I'd say. Or, when something is 'said', it's often of a truly banal nature. And in the better journals, wilful jargon masquerading a lack of content can usually be spotted and weeded out by the peer reviewers at best. Not always, but at least sometimes.
Yeah.  Have to say I got turned off science journalism for the same reason Wink  I think seeing journalists invade any specialist field that on is familiar with is likely to produce such an effect though.

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We wouldn't have a problem with work on rocket science or quantum physics only being read by other rocket scientists or quantum physicists, would we?

Well that's because people can make money with (a lot of) rocket science and (some) quantum physics.  Maybe what we *need* to see are more "music-biz"-focused journals, that would contain theorizings about purely about profitable music.  Such a publication would doubtlessly attract substantial funding, both from the industry and the government, hopefully to the detriment of all these other less marketable products of musical academia.
« Last Edit: 02:03:06, 15-07-2007 by increpatio » Logged

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Ian Pace
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« Reply #24 on: 02:01:55, 15-07-2007 »

Maybe what we *need* to see are more "music-biz"-focused journals, that would contain theorizings about purely about profitable music.
Well, there's a whole musicological industry devoted to Popular Music Studies (with several journals on that subject) nowadays - would that count?
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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« Reply #25 on: 02:09:38, 15-07-2007 »

Maybe what we *need* to see are more "music-biz"-focused journals, that would contain theorizings about purely about profitable music.
Well, there's a whole musicological industry devoted to Popular Music Studies (with several journals on that subject) nowadays - would that count?

Provided they were highly focused at increasing the economic efficiency and share-value-stability of our beloved publishing houses, as opposed to this  obsolete notion of sentimentality (insofar as it is not conductive to profit-increasing) that so enburdens many of the more outmoded of our current music journals.

(Hmm...not necessarily Ian: there probably are such things in the heady world of business/music academia overlap though.   http://www.thembj.com/ maybe, only it's not quite as explicitly exploitative as I might like in it's treatment of music as a means of accumulating wealth Wink ).
« Last Edit: 02:19:30, 15-07-2007 by increpatio » Logged

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« Reply #26 on: 22:55:20, 15-07-2007 »

Don't how that analogy with Quantum Physics really works - music is so much more visible, seemingly more accessible to ppl who aren't necessarily in the scene or whatever.

"My ideal? I suppose it would be something in the hinterland between those two on the one hand and something a bit more 'popular' and 'newsy' on the other, with a bit of the old 'Listener' thrown in for good measure. 'Scholarly' but not 'academic' if you get my drift. Oh, and rather more pictures of attractive people drooping languidly and suggestively over their cellos than you tend to get in the average copy of Tempo Cheesy."

"Might that be something akin to a musical equivalent of the London Review of Books or New York Review of Books? That would be most welcome, I reckon."

That would be great, with plenty of writing on other contemporary arts (as RB says). I've not glanced at LRB very often, but they don't cover much music at all do they? I wonder what that says...

As far as paper-only its wire for me. Beginning to hate what's become of the magazine - but they had some gd commentators on classical music stuff - Max Harrison springs immediately to mind (from the old old days) and Philip Clark I suppose. I first heard of Finnissy when I read an interview with him conducted by the very admired B*n W*ts*n :-)

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ahinton
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« Reply #27 on: 06:43:33, 16-07-2007 »

ultimately people get their information on music from somewhere, a book on a composer, or so on - and conservatory teachers and quite a few performers and composers do learn this way
I believe scores, performances and recordings can also have their uses in this regard.

I take your point about serious scholarship standing behind anything authoritative one might read about music though.
Indeed they do! - and as far as "musicology bashing" is concerned, I have no desire to indulge in it myself for the sake of it; where I stand on this is that musicology, when it throws useful light on a topic in which one is interested and increases understanding of it, that's fine, but where I tend to part company with it is when it appears to be elevated to an art-form in its own right (of which there is a sufficient plenitude of illustrative examples that have already been mentioned hereabouts that there's no real need to identify any here), as though it is either more important than and/or independent of the music whose interests it is supposed to serve.

Best,

Alistair
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aaron cassidy
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« Reply #28 on: 07:53:33, 16-07-2007 »

The thing about musicology, of the kind practised in the "serious" journals, is that its readership consists almost entirely of musicologists. I can see how it serves and perpetuates that little industry, but other than that most of it seems to me to have very little point. Most of the few occasions I've consulted a musicological article have been occasioned by coming across some writing on music I'm interested in, and wondering what the author has to say about it. As often as not, though, the author doesn't seem particularly interested in the music in question, and their analyses vary between tautology and obscure jargon. Perhaps they should now and again be compelled to write an article or two for a general readership, in order to get a feeling for what actually saying something consists of.

Respectfully, I find this argument quite problematic, Richard, because if you replaced "musicology" with "composition," it's exactly the sort of critique that one might level against much of the music you're most interested in (and, to be even more bold, it's the sort of thing that's been written about your music from time to time over the last couple of decades). 

Along the lines of:  ...  Composers write only for their composer peers, their work doesn't speak to a larger audience, it doesn't really address 'real music,' they use a specialist's language, they mimic the jargon of the sciences, the composers who are commissioned are commissioned only to prop up the tiny collection of festivals that no one attends anyhow, why can't they write music that people actually want to hear ...


I'm playing devil's advocate, and doing so far too obviously. 

I agree wholeheartedly w/ your view on most musicological research, in that much of it seems quite oddly non-musical to me, but I'm also willing to grant that a musicologist's trade evolves and develops on a (musical) plane completely separate from the one I inhabit; I would no sooner expect a musicologist to understand what I'm up to as a composer than they ought to expect me to understand how they're approaching musical research/reception history/etc.  They are different skills, different interests, different audiences; there are musicologists doing interesting and innovative work just as there are musicologists doing moronic work that's mostly the result of trying to build a career out of whatever happens to be the musicological trend of the hour.  But calling out the profession seems a particularly problematic and largely indefensible position. 

I do appreciate your clarification in the later post, but ... I'm not entirely sure musicology is necessarily meant to 'serve' music.  At its best, it's a parallel pursuit, engaging and challenging and prodding music; it's going to do that on its own terms, just as those of us who commit energy to writing do so on ours.

Moreover, you also of course know that many (perhaps most?) of the composers who get significant attention and support (through major performances, publications, recordings, etc.) aren't necessarily the ones doing the most interesting work in the field; surely the same must be true in musicology.  I'm quite certain that there are exceptional young researchers doing incredibly important and innovative work that changes the way we think about and understand music and music history and music perception/reception who are working well below the radar. 
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richard barrett
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« Reply #29 on: 11:03:58, 16-07-2007 »

Respectfully, I find this argument quite problematic, Richard, because if you replaced "musicology" with "composition," it's exactly the sort of critique that one might level against much of the music you're most interested in (and, to be even more bold, it's the sort of thing that's been written about your music from time to time over the last couple of decades).

Along the lines of:  ...  Composers write only for their composer peers, their work doesn't speak to a larger audience, it doesn't really address 'real music,' they use a specialist's language, they mimic the jargon of the sciences, the composers who are commissioned are commissioned only to prop up the tiny collection of festivals that no one attends anyhow, why can't they write music that people actually want to hear ...
Saying this is a problem with composition doesn't make it any less of a problem with musicology!

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I'm not entirely sure musicology is necessarily meant to 'serve' music.  At its best, it's a parallel pursuit, engaging and challenging and prodding music; it's going to do that on its own terms, just as those of us who commit energy to writing do so on ours.
If musicology really isn't intended to "serve" music but exists in its own parallel world then for me that's another pretty convincing reason to ignore it.

But over and above those things, I think the comparisons you're making between making music and doing musicology are comparing two things that can't really be compared. Look at the comments that people on this messageboard make about concerts they've heard. "I loved every minute", says Milly about last night's Prom. Has anyone ever thought anything like that about any musicological article ever written anywhere?
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