|
ahinton
|
 |
« Reply #180 on: 18:22:05, 04-10-2007 » |
|
But how much money do Messrs Dish, Hinton, Barrett and Sorabji actually make as a direct result of the application of their intellectual property rights? I can answer for one member of this quartet and say: not much at all.
Dare I ask which one?! In each case, the answer is undoubtedly "not very much", but a little is better than nothing - and the royalties of two of them do go to the same recipient, which helps a little. The problems assosicated with royalty income are not, of course, confined to the amounts that may get paid; there is the additional issue that some royalties don't get paid at all and some take years to be paid. In addition, the divergence between different countries' royalty rates is enormous. The fact remains that I'd be even more in queer street without them. Best, Alistair |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
richard barrett
Guest
|
|
« Reply #181 on: 18:25:43, 04-10-2007 » |
|
it may put you out of a certain maintenance of your good reputation, which you rely upon to continue producing your work I don't know that I do, really. Nor do I really think I'm that bothered about having a "good reputation", though I may be deluding myself in saying that, assuming I have a good reputation, or indeed anything at all that could be called a "reputation", which may or may not be the case. One of the problems that goes along with the whole commodification process is that a "reputation" in itself can become a millstone, in so far as it's based on producing a reliable and predictable product, and ultimately therefore on a fine balance between consistency and self-repetition which (in many instances I can think of and I'm sure you can too) leads not infrequently to rather uninteresting stuff. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Ian Pace
|
|
« Reply #182 on: 18:27:00, 04-10-2007 » |
|
I don't really have the energy to get into the intellectual property argument at the moment, but wondered what William Barrington-Coupe might have to say on it if he were posting to this thread?  Thought re reputations: surely it's at least in part on the basis of reputations that composers are commissioned and performed (in particular, that new pieces are scheduled for performance), and without that factor (for all the undoubted problems it brings, as detailed by Richard), few of those writing the best work would become engaged to do so on a sustained basis? At least not without some other system for providing them with regular employment. I would love to see them debated there, although I wouldn't like to imply that such debates are not equally valid when they're not happening in MT or Tempo. I don't have any problem reading them in the Weekly Worker (not least because its online feed seems to be much more reliable and accessible than that of any of the other publications you mention; it's also very well presented and tidily and consistently edited). Of course, the debate would take a different shape in MT or Tempo as they're quarterly publications, and I do think the possibility of almost weekly replies from Downie, Hoban et al has been a particularly useful feature of the present debate. As for New Notes, article length and the need to write something in a way that makes it as relevant as possible to a high proportion of readers (since until recently there was only ever one lead article per issue) can be constraints, but I certainly don't think the magazine is unwilling to print politically- or sociologically-oriented analyses; indeed, I covered some related ground in the April '07 issue, in response to spnm's 'Music and Politics' theme. It wasn't quite the same sort of thing as the Weekly Worker pieces we've been looking at, but as I say that's more to do with addressing a different readership than with any unwillingness on my or the editors' part to be perceived as 'political'.
Yesssss - very fair stuff. I suppose I also wonder whether this sort of stuff couldn't be debated in some of the national dailies as well? Certainly would make a refreshing change from yet another article that's basically a paraphrase of what so-and-so artist's PR manager has sent the paper..... I reckon the wider public would find such things interesting and engaging - would anyone agree? I do take my hat off to the editor of Weekly Worker for running this stuff for such an extended period - it's far more edifying reading from more gloating articles about splits and internal warfare in rival far-left sects (alas most of the far left press likes to indulge that sort of thing). Yes, it could get messy. But theory and practice must go hand in hand. Besides, you make it sound as if democracy was created by the privileged classes to make those without privilege feel better -- not that it isn't de facto that way, but insofar as it is, that's not real democracy, just so we're clear.
When the system was created, no people below a certain class nor women had the vote. Now that has changed. I would say that is at least something of an improvement, and takes the existing versions of 'democracy' a mite closer to what any real concept of the term might indicate. (which is not to deny that 'actually-existing democracy' falls far short of the claims made for it) |
|
|
|
« Last Edit: 20:11:24, 04-10-2007 by Ian Pace »
|
Logged
|
'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
|
|
|
|
Ian Pace
|
|
« Reply #183 on: 20:17:55, 04-10-2007 » |
|
The latest issue of Weekly Worker is now available for download here, with the latest response from Hoban to Downie. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
|
|
|
|
TimR-J
Guest
|
|
« Reply #184 on: 20:21:45, 04-10-2007 » |
|
(with apologies for stepping late into a thread that I've only paid passing attention to thus far) If there were no copyright, your name wouldn't have to appear on any performance of your music, and while that may not put you out of a stream of cash, it may put you out of a certain maintenance of your good reputation, which you rely upon to continue producing your work. Intellectual property rights are a mere token gesture, I grant ye, but one that I place a lot of value upon beyond cold hard cash.
But that's not actually true is it? I'd have to check regarding music, but as far as writing goes (in the UK at least) giving up one's copyright is completely different from giving up one's authors' rights - which are pretty much always yours. So, giving up copyright is relatively straightforward (although you do have to actively relinquish it), you retain your rights as the author of the work - so, to take an extreme example, if your music was being used to underscore a film about how great Hitler was, you have legal support (even sans copyright) to put a stop to it. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
TimR-J
Guest
|
|
« Reply #185 on: 20:24:38, 04-10-2007 » |
|
This is not to say that people wouldn't necessarily try it on, but even without copyright law there are still provisions for protecting one's "reputation" as an artist if you so wish.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
ahinton
|
|
« Reply #186 on: 21:31:01, 04-10-2007 » |
|
it may put you out of a certain maintenance of your good reputation, which you rely upon to continue producing your work I don't know that I do, really. Nor do I really think I'm that bothered about having a "good reputation", though I may be deluding myself in saying that, assuming I have a good reputation, or indeed anything at all that could be called a "reputation", which may or may not be the case. One of the problems that goes along with the whole commodification process is that a "reputation" in itself can become a millstone, in so far as it's based on producing a reliable and predictable product, and ultimately therefore on a fine balance between consistency and self-repetition which (in many instances I can think of and I'm sure you can too) leads not infrequently to rather uninteresting stuff. How very true that is - it may be taken to sound as though it's abit like some kind of homily, but a very necessary one, for all that! Best, Alistair |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
ahinton
|
|
« Reply #187 on: 21:47:01, 04-10-2007 » |
|
I don't really have the energy to get into the intellectual property argument at the moment, but wondered what William Barrington-Coupe might have to say on it if he were posting to this thread? Yes, very funny, Ian! And yet - WB-C has actually honoured his commitments and obligations fo MCPS to the letter, apparently, so maybe he has an uniquely selective attitude towards such things. In other words, he's evidently not sought to compromise the rights of the composer (although, since most of the stuff on his "label" is public doman anyway, that's hardly a big deal, I imagine), preferring instead to ride roughshod over the rights of the record companies and artists involved in the property which he has appropriated. Thought re reputations: surely it's at least in part on the basis of reputations that composers are commissioned and performed (in particular, that new pieces are scheduled for performance), and without that factor (for all the undoubted problems it brings, as detailed by Richard), few of those writing the best work would become engaged to do so on a sustained basis? At least not without some other system for providing them with regular employment.
You're quite right here; the problem is that, as I see it, one ought also to take on board the bases upon which such "reputations" are "made" - or perhaps sometimes "contrived" - and then recognise that, if this is how the system is to work and if composers' income streams were accordingly to become dependent solely upon the commissions originating from those "reputations" rather than having additional recourse to an alternative income stream from royalties, it is possible that fewer composers would be able to afford to compose and more composers would encounter even more problems in securing public peformances. When the system was created, no people below a certain class nor women had the vote. Now that has changed. I would say that is at least something of an improvement, and takes the existing versions of 'democracy' a mite closer to what any real concept of the term might indicate.
(which is not to deny that 'actually-existing democracy' falls far short of the claims made for it)
I'm going to try to be as careful as I can when treading upon these kinds of issues, as I do not want to risk opening up any animosity if I can help it, but yes, of course a system that allows almost every registered legal citizen over a certain age, regardless of sex, creed, race or any other consideration, to vote in local and general elections is something of an improvement on any more restrictive system, yet from time to time a lower percentage of those entitled to vote now do so than was the case in those far-off days of restrictive voting practice. There are almost as many reasons for this as there are voters, I imagine and, of course, this is hardly the place to go into that problem, interesting and significant though it undoubtedly is. Best, Alistair |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
ahinton
|
|
« Reply #188 on: 22:11:17, 04-10-2007 » |
|
The latest issue of Weekly Worker is now available for download here, with the latest response from Hoban to Downie. I've read it; it is a constant yet ever-increasing source of puzzlement to me that this journal continues to publish these exchanges - not because they do not contain (even in their often mind-numbingly navel-gazing mannerisms) anything of interest - far from it, in fact - but because it is hard to imagine more than the very tiniest proportion of the journal's regular readership having the faintest idea what the protagonists and antagonists are writing about in direct relational reference to those aspects of humanity that engage them (the regular readers, that is) in such ways as to warrant their involvement in the more usual expressions to be found in that journal. But then I'm just abit of a thicko, I suppose... Best, Alistair |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Ian Pace
|
|
« Reply #189 on: 22:16:50, 04-10-2007 » |
|
The latest issue of Weekly Worker is now available for download here, with the latest response from Hoban to Downie. I've read it; it is a constant yet ever-increasing source of puzzlement to me that this journal continues to publish these exchanges - not because they do not contain (even in their often mind-numbingly navel-gazing mannerisms) anything of interest - far from it, in fact - but because it is hard to imagine more than the very tiniest proportion of the journal's regular readership having the faintest idea what the protagonists and antagonists are writing about in direct relational reference to those aspects of humanity that engage them (the regular readers, that is) in such ways as to warrant their involvement in the more usual expressions to be found in that journal. Well, maybe the readership do, and possibly find the issues interesting, more so than some might give such a readership credit for? One comrade-friend involved in both radical politics and new music pointed out to me that he's found it much easier to interest those involved in the former in the latter than vice versa. (I would recommend that people here look at the other articles in Weekly Worker as well, though you can afford to skip all the stuff about Respect, for all the latter's undoubted problems at present) |
|
|
|
« Last Edit: 22:41:37, 04-10-2007 by Ian Pace »
|
Logged
|
'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
|
|
|
|
richard barrett
Guest
|
|
« Reply #190 on: 22:28:56, 04-10-2007 » |
|
it is hard to imagine more than the very tiniest proportion of the journal's regular readership having the faintest idea what the protagonists and antagonists are writing about in direct relational reference to those aspects of humanity that engage them (the regular readers, that is) The thing is, Alistair, you have now become a regular reader of the Weekly Worker! |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Ian Pace
|
|
« Reply #191 on: 22:31:34, 04-10-2007 » |
|
Also, the fact that Weekly Worker is available for all of us to download free might to some extent at least diminish its own commodity status? |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
|
|
|
|
ahinton
|
|
« Reply #192 on: 23:29:39, 04-10-2007 » |
|
it is hard to imagine more than the very tiniest proportion of the journal's regular readership having the faintest idea what the protagonists and antagonists are writing about in direct relational reference to those aspects of humanity that engage them (the regular readers, that is) The thing is, Alistair, you have now become a regular reader of the Weekly Worker! Now you REALLY enjoyed that, didn't you?! I hate to disillusion you after such a wonderfully witty and delightful coup de (well, I was going to write "grace", but I somehow think that it should perhaps be something else), but I have to tell you that I've not quite done that, really - I've only ever read the specific bits of exchange about the subject under discussion here, so I cannot fairly and truthfully claim to be one of the Workly Weeker's readership per se... Anyway, I'm quite sure that most of that readership would be horrified to think that I had sullied their journal by poking my nose into a particular subject enshrined therein (and, who knows? - perhaps they'd be right...). Best, Alistair |
|
|
|
« Last Edit: 08:36:19, 05-10-2007 by ahinton »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
ahinton
|
|
« Reply #193 on: 23:39:16, 04-10-2007 » |
|
The latest issue of Weekly Worker is now available for download here, with the latest response from Hoban to Downie. I've read it; it is a constant yet ever-increasing source of puzzlement to me that this journal continues to publish these exchanges - not because they do not contain (even in their often mind-numbingly navel-gazing mannerisms) anything of interest - far from it, in fact - but because it is hard to imagine more than the very tiniest proportion of the journal's regular readership having the faintest idea what the protagonists and antagonists are writing about in direct relational reference to those aspects of humanity that engage them (the regular readers, that is) in such ways as to warrant their involvement in the more usual expressions to be found in that journal. Well, maybe the readership do, and possibly find the issues interesting, more so than some might give such a readership credit for? One comrade-friend involved in both radical politics and new music pointed out to me that he's found it much easier to interest those involved in the former in the latter than vice versa. Well, that's interesting and, since I'm at least as much of an outsider here than in the world of Deberal Limocracy, High Toryism or any other political persuasion as enshrined in their journals, I'll take your word for that, but how many of the WW's regular readership ARE interested in both of those subjects as your "comrade friend" evidently is? - a very small proportion, I imagine and, even with that proportion, I would take leave to doubt that the particular gladiatorial gymnastics of verbosity between Herr Hoban and Mr Downie that make play with aspects of musical commodification from an ostensibly rarefied (if not reified) high modernist perpective cut little ice. Best, Alistair |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Ian Pace
|
|
« Reply #194 on: 23:44:39, 04-10-2007 » |
|
how many of the WW's regular readership ARE interested in both of those subjects as your "comrade friend" evidently is? - a very small proportion, I imagine and, even with that proportion, I would take leave to doubt that the particular gladiatorial gymnastics of verbosity between Herr Hoban and Mr Downie that make play with aspects of musical commodification from an ostensibly rarefied (if not reified) high modernist perpective cut little ice. I have no idea for sure, but I would wager a bet that some of the readership of that journal, being familiar with Marxist ideas and concepts, might find such a debate more immediate than some others that are undertaken on musical subjects. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
|
|
|
|
