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Author Topic: Irrationals/tuplets  (Read 2052 times)
Poivrade
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« on: 21:43:14, 04-08-2007 »

I'm new here, but I note the distinguished company on this board, who may be able to shed light on a phenomenon that has puzzled me for many years-What is the point of the furthest reaches of rhythmic irrationalities in notation? Carter's are complex but realisable by the very best musicians, as indeed seem to be Richard Barrett's, but those of Michael Finnissy or Brian Ferneyhough for example(not to conflate their very different but equally admirable aesthetics)seem ultimately only to have the effect of ensuring that the notion of pulse is generally put as far away from the listeners' perception as possible, since a genuinely accurate rendition would appear to be beyond human capability. And if they aren't unrealisable, anyone got any hints?
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #1 on: 21:57:59, 04-08-2007 »

Well, it all depends really. Smiley

No, really, it does, not only from composer to composer but from piece to piece. I remember playing Time and Motion Study I to Brian for the first time and him gently but firmly beating out the quavers to make sure I was playing the 10s - 11s - 12s - 13s - 14s accurately. On the other hand he's famously resistant to the idea of having his scores printed in 'time-space' as people like Richard do so that the rhythms are represented not just in the ratios but in the spacing of the notes on the page - which is a notational tool one migt expect a composer only concerned with exactitude to jump at.

I don't generally often find such things 'unrealisable' as such - indeed they might not be playable so that a listener might think (to take a reasonably famous example) 'ah, yes, that's 70:67', but neither would even something as straightforward as 6:5 be playable so that a listener could precisely identify it numerically under most circumstances. I've very rarely met such examples in conducted music where it's completely unfeasible simply to play it in time so that one arrives at the next downbeat (or wherever) with the conductor, for example.

Some composers (Chris Dench for example) use such things to point out structural allegiances across a work; there I suppose it's a matter of leaving the scaffolding visible so that the performer isn't deprived of potentially useful information.

Of course the issue could fill several books. But don't worry, not from me it won't.
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Poivrade
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« Reply #2 on: 22:17:11, 04-08-2007 »

So do such things arrive from structural necessity? I remember Boulez talking about making  a new version of 'Le Visage Nuptial' for example, in which the notation, while less precise, would lead to a more accurate performance. Certainly if one is only playing one line at once and there is a conductor one can be pretty precise-but what do the rhythms in, for example, Michael Finnisy's 'English country tunes' or Ferneyhough's 'Lemma-Icon-Epigram' really mean?
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #3 on: 22:34:53, 04-08-2007 »

what do the rhythms in, for example, Michael Finnisy's 'English country tunes' or Ferneyhough's 'Lemma-Icon-Epigram' really mean?
Very different things in either case (and different again in the work of other composers). In Lemma-Icon-Epigram, the rhythms do arise from some deep-seated structural working, and sometimes linear or other rhythmic progressions are apparent on the surface. In this sense they have a certain 'integrative' role, whereas in the later Opus Contra Naturam, which has significantly more complex tuplet patterns (four levels of nested tuplets in the first bar), they seem more to serve a certain 'defamiliarisation' role, steering the performer away from more regular or familiar patterns as far as possible (of course there are some more meaningfully audible rhythmic relationships in the later piece, and some more defamiliarising effects in the earlier one, it's a question of degree).

English Country-Tunes: the extant sketches for that work aren't that comprehensive in terms of illuminating the compositional processes, so I can't say exactly why they emerged the way they did (if that is necessarily important). Whilst Finnissy does sometimes uses audible rhythmic processes in his more 'a-metric' works (for example in the work Fast Dances, Slow Dances), overall they more fulfill the role of a type of 'localised rhythmic coloration', to be worked on carefully but then played quite freely in concert (certainly he plays them extremely freely himself, though he wouldn't necessarily advocate his own approach to others). In those rhythmic processes I've identified from sketches, there is usually a level of randomness involved, as a means of producing a certain generalised effect. Nothing like as extensively as in, say, Cage's Music of Changes, though, which has rhythms every bit as complex as the aforementioned works, if not more so.
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
oliver sudden
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« Reply #4 on: 22:38:03, 04-08-2007 »

So do such things arrive from structural necessity? I remember Boulez talking about making  a new version of 'Le Visage Nuptial' for example, in which the notation, while less precise, would lead to a more accurate performance. Certainly if one is only playing one line at once and there is a conductor one can be pretty precise-but what do the rhythms in, for example, Michael Finnisy's 'English country tunes' or Ferneyhough's 'Lemma-Icon-Epigram' really mean?
I'm usually happy with the argument that the notation reflects something which is indeed composed into the piece, which to me English Country-Tunes or Lemma-Icon-Epigram do although I'm unlikely ever to play them. To me those examples do seem to pass the Straussian test of 'I'd notice if it weren't there'. I do prefer to be trusted to know what to do with that kind of structural information even when the strategy for realising it isn't obvious.

If a composer makes the notation of something less precise then they will probably indeed get a more precise performance of the new text but will that be as faithful a realisation of the original idea? Possibly not.
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Poivrade
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« Reply #5 on: 22:43:17, 04-08-2007 »

Thank you Ian and Oliver-sort of as I thought, but I still can't get my head around the notion of extreme precision of notation being the means to guarantee a free approach in performance. I think I do the same as Oliver does, which seems to satisfy others but I hate being in a position where the notion of 'getting it right' seems to be a movable feast.
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #6 on: 22:43:33, 04-08-2007 »

I'm usually happy with the argument that the notation reflects something which is indeed composed into the piece, which to me English Country-Tunes or Lemma-Icon-Epigram do although I'm unlikely ever to play them. To me those examples do seem to pass the Straussian test of 'I'd notice if it weren't there'. I do prefer to be trusted to know what to do with that kind of structural information even when the strategy for realising it isn't obvious.

If a composer makes the notation of something less precise then they will probably indeed get a more precise performance of the new text but will that be as faithful a realisation of the original idea? Possibly not.
Indeed (and agreed to all the above). If the only aim of the composer is simply to have the performer execute what's on the page in some sense 'exactly', then why not simply write for electronics instead?

There have been a few threads touching on these issues - can't remember what they're called again, but will look them up. One thing various of the composers sometimes say, is that notation is there to produce a certain type of response from the performer; other modes of notation would produce different results. In the cases of Ferneyhough, Finnissy, Barrett, Dench, Erber, Downie, Cage, or anyone else - each has a different aesthetic goal in mind, and use notation as best as they can in order to induce the performer to realise such a goal.
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
Ian Pace
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« Reply #7 on: 22:45:50, 04-08-2007 »

Thank you Ian and Oliver-sort of as I thought, but I still can't get my head around the notion of extreme precision of notation being the means to guarantee a free approach in performance.
Well, to paraphrase Lachenmann (in a different context), maybe 'complex notation produces denial of habit'?
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
Poivrade
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« Reply #8 on: 22:48:37, 04-08-2007 »

Which I approve of entirely. But how precise should one aim to be?
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #9 on: 22:50:55, 04-08-2007 »

I hate being in a position where the notion of 'getting it right' seems to be a movable feast.

I very much like it myself. After all it's a situation which applies in most of the repertoire, I would say; there's a certain way rhythms are treated which is responsible for the 'feel' of so much music from Baroque overtures and notes inégales to Strauss waltzes, Mahlerian rubato and swing. (None of which I am any good at.)

I'm told it's rare for notes which are equal on the page and which take part in any kind of accent scheme to be really metronomically equal - the urge to give the accentuation just a little bit of presence in the note spacing is apparently hard to resist. Anyone who plays in ensemble will probably have had some kind of discussion of whether to play on the 'front' or the 'back' of the beat even when there's no conductor... most such things can be as complex (or as complicated) as you want to make them.
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #10 on: 22:53:22, 04-08-2007 »

And when playing any sort of minimalist or other highly metrically regular music, those details of how one executes such things become very immediate (and very obvious if players take different approaches). On the piano, when you different metres in either hand, it makes a lot of difference which hand one 'thinks' as the 'beat'.
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
Poivrade
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« Reply #11 on: 23:07:56, 04-08-2007 »

I hate being in a position where the notion of 'getting it right' seems to be a movable feast.

I very much like it myself. After all it's a situation which applies in most of the repertoire, I would say; there's a certain way rhythms are treated which is responsible for the 'feel' of so much music from Baroque overtures and notes inégales to Strauss waltzes, Mahlerian rubato and swing. (None of which I am any good at.)

I'm told it's rare for notes which are equal on the page and which take part in any kind of accent scheme to be really metronomically equal - the urge to give the accentuation just a little bit of presence in the note spacing is apparently hard to resist. Anyone who plays in ensemble will probably have had some kind of discussion of whether to play on the 'front' or the 'back' of the beat even when there's no conductor... most such things can be as complex (or as complicated) as you want to make them.

The examples you give, however, rely upon the inalienable sense of pulse which animates not only music but life itself. I'm sometimes at a loss with really complex music how one retains this without effectively rewriting the music, which certainly seems to be done by many of its most prominent exponents-admirably not in Ian's case!
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #12 on: 23:28:30, 04-08-2007 »

My pulse fluctuates plenty with the passing minutes, I'm sure yours does too... and I do plenty of things which feel entirely independent of it although doubtless there's some complex relationship with it deep in the background somewhere. Really not so different. Wink

Oo, I just tried taking my pulse in my wrist and in my neck at once. A bit spooky that.

(There's a Holliger piece for oboist in which the heartbeat is amplified - Cardiophonie, it's called. Never heard it but I imagine it must be pretty scary.)
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Kittybriton
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« Reply #13 on: 23:37:02, 04-08-2007 »

One thing various of the composers sometimes say, is that notation is there to produce a certain type of response from the performer;

Thank goodness you actually said it Ian! Has anybody ever admitted to trying to produce a complete meltdown upon sightreading?

(I ask, purely as a hammer-chewer)
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Poivrade
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« Reply #14 on: 23:38:13, 04-08-2007 »

Of course, but it is different-surely one exercises conscious control over the music one plays, something that's harder to do with one's own pulse? are you suggesting that one just gives an impression of the notation, rather than evolve strategies to realise it as closely as possible?
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