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Author Topic: Instrument makers  (Read 618 times)
oliver sudden
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« on: 21:12:08, 11-11-2007 »

This from strinasacchi:

I'm always amazed by instrument makers who don't/can't play the instruments they make.  But maybe they're equally amazed by players who know very little about the physical construction of their own instruments...

I'm not quite so amazed - I had just mentioned Peter van der Poel, Guntram Wolf and Andreas Schöni, all people who have built instruments which I tidied off my armchair and sofa this morning or who will soon start building instruments for me to tidy off my armchair and sofa on a future slack Sunday.

But they're all either recorder or bassoon players. So they have some kind of idea how fingers like to go up and down and how things have to seal, even if they can't quite get around a clarinet or chalumeau themselves... and of course there's the basic reproducing the historical model thing, although they all do that with different degrees of tweaking - some sizes of chalumeau don't exist in historical examples, so clearly there's some creativity involved there anyway.

Anyway - anyone else here have any regular dealings with instrument builders and feel like sharing any thoughts on the subject? I know there are quite a few string players about and that is obviously something a little different from the wind instrument angle...
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strinasacchi
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« Reply #1 on: 21:52:30, 11-11-2007 »

I've not personally been involved in helping an instrument-maker develop his/her ideas, but I recently played a violin that was the result of much collaborative research:

www.themonteverdiviolins.com

If I had bags of money I'd be getting one of these.  Great sound and response, and it did blend very well with the other one.  So it's on the list for my next lottery win (along with a late classical/early romantic era violin, a good modern bow, an early 17th century bow...)  Sad

There's a terrific bowmaker in Germany who also bases his designs on a combination of careful measurements of originals and paintings from the time:

www.bows-viols.de/index_eng.htm

I know this approach is standard for most makers of early instruments, but some seem better at it than others.  I suppose you have to choose your sources carefully.

And then there's the question of tweaking authenticity for practical purposes.  My violin, for example, is similar in size to the 1605 Amati brothers violin that George Stoppani used as his model.  It's from slightly later (1650-ish), but would probably sound wonderfully appropriate in a similar very early set-up.  But it's my only violin, and I need to play Bach, Handel, Mozart etc on it.  The luthier who restored it discussed this with me, and we decided to use a later model of bridge and a longer fingerboard than it ought, strictly speaking, to have (though I do string it at equal tension).
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thompson1780
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« Reply #2 on: 21:55:00, 11-11-2007 »

I've not personally been involved in helping an instrument-maker develop his/her ideas, but I recently played a violin that was the result of much collaborative research:

www.themonteverdiviolins.com

Not yesterday's gig by any chance, strina.  Hope it went well.  And more importantly, hope the tubes are working well too.

Tommo
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strinasacchi
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« Reply #3 on: 21:59:23, 11-11-2007 »

Yes, yesterday's gig Tommo.  I think it was fine - but my ears stubbornly remain blocked.  I could still tell a good violin through the muffle, though.  I'm going to beg my friend hard for a chance to try the violin when my ears are actually working properly.
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thompson1780
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« Reply #4 on: 22:06:59, 11-11-2007 »

Glad it went OK - and here's to the liberation of the lug'oles

Tommo
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richard barrett
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« Reply #5 on: 22:09:32, 11-11-2007 »

I've not personally been involved in helping an instrument-maker develop his/her ideas, but I recently played a violin that was the result of much collaborative research:

www.themonteverdiviolins.com

Very interesting. I've read some very similar things from Peter Holman in connection with a set of instruments he commissioned (?) for his own ensemble, which do sound very convincing on some of the recordings I've heard.

The twentieth century seems to have been a fallow period in terms of creative interaction between composers and instrument-builders (compare with Wagner and Berlioz, let alone earlier composers), owing no doubt to the quasi-industrial standardisation of instrument technology in that period. More recently, though (just as an aside), the situation was begun to change again, since in the domain of electronic music (I mean the sort that's performed rather than just played back) the roles of composer and instrument-maker often become indistinguishable: "building" an instrument consisting of computer software and a physical means of actuating it is pretty much the same thing as deciding what sort of music you want to be able to play on it.
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #6 on: 22:33:10, 11-11-2007 »

the roles of composer and instrument-maker often become indistinguishable: "building" an instrument consisting of computer software and a physical means of actuating it is pretty much the same thing as deciding what sort of music you want to be able to play on it.

I wouldn't personally say that's such a great change, you know. Or at least - I would certainly suggest that the resources of the instrument make a greater contribution to the music that either composer or performer can bring out of it than... er... than what exactly? Than we used to imagine back when anything for a keyboard would be played on a Steinway or not at all, for example...

At least that's something that's been on my mind in the last little while quite a bit. Most recently a couple of days ago when I decided to try out some of the temperaments my Roland has to offer (please don't cringe, strina, I don't have the money, the space or the talent to justify having a real instrument... but I do have a bit of an idea of the difference between sampled noises and the resonances that a real instrument produces when it's tuned properly. Anyway...). Prelude 1 from WTC1 sounds very reasonable indeed in Kirnberger, a little dodgy in Werckmeister - and oh look, completely impossible in meantone because Ab tends to actually be a G#.

Of course only a fool would suggest that that's why Bach chose Ab for the bass in bar 23. Being a fool, I will suggest exactly that. Smiley

In the clarinet repertoire (ahem) one comes up against this constantly. Mozart clarinet concerto, anyone?
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richard barrett
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« Reply #7 on: 22:36:29, 11-11-2007 »

the roles of composer and instrument-maker often become indistinguishable: "building" an instrument consisting of computer software and a physical means of actuating it is pretty much the same thing as deciding what sort of music you want to be able to play on it.

I wouldn't personally say that's such a great change
Maybe I should put it in stronger terms then . what I meant was that composing the music and designing/building the instrument become the same thing, done more often than not by the same person.
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #8 on: 22:40:00, 11-11-2007 »

To a certain point I suppose. On the other hand are there that many composers who write their own software for such things? - to say nothing of the hardware?



Afterthought - I know nothing in this field but I have heard some who do on many post-concert occasions point out how such and such a composer used such and such a basic effect from such and such a program - there are clearly 'lines of least resistance' here as well! Smiley
« Last Edit: 22:55:07, 11-11-2007 by oliver sudden » Logged
Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #9 on: 22:52:44, 11-11-2007 »

The twentieth century seems to have been a fallow period in terms of creative interaction between composers and instrument-builders (compare with Wagner and Berlioz, let alone earlier composers),

Except, perhaps, in the sphere of percussion?  Look at the "kitchen department" as it stood at the end of the C19th..  there is very little indeed, especially in the sphere of pitched percussion...   whereas composers now expect that exotica like a bass marimba will be "on call" almost anywhere.   I know they are possibly atypical, but Partch comes to mind too, and I may even for once beat Bryn into naming Nancarrow in this context?

Oh, and Scriabin's "colour organ".  And the Ondes Martenot. 

I suppose the biggest change in instrument technology in the C20th was affordability...  the technological leap Richard mentioned meant that even modest students can afford a fine playable instrument, compared to the cost/quality of such an instrument in the preceding century?
« Last Edit: 22:57:33, 11-11-2007 by Reiner Torheit » Logged

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richard barrett
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« Reply #10 on: 22:55:39, 11-11-2007 »

To a certain point I suppose. On the other hand are there that many composers who write their own software for such things?

Yes, I think there are, although "writing software" is itself a bit ill-defined - you can be right down with the nuts and bolts, or working in a code-based programming environment like Supercollider, or a GUI-based one like MaxMSP, or a construction kit like Reaktor... and as for hardware, yes, it mostly comes off the shelf but the ways the same bits and pieces can be configured and connected and put into action are many and varied - the "instrument-building" consists as much in how one puts the components together as in which components they are (which, one might say, makes the process even more like composition).

Anyway I'm sure this isn't what the thread is supposed to be about.

Except, perhaps, in the sphere of percussion? 

Quite right.
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richard barrett
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« Reply #11 on: 23:03:50, 11-11-2007 »

I have heard some who do on many post-concert occasions point out how such and such a composer used such and such a basic effect from such and such a program - there are clearly 'lines of least resistance' here as well! Smiley

Indeed. The thing with a lot of this technology is it's made so that as soon as you have it up and running some vaguely interesting stuff can be made to come out, unlike with violins and clarinets (they just aren't user-friendly enough!), which, if "vaguely interesting in the same sort of way as loads of other people who have been here before and can't be bothered to go any further" is one's bag, is already enough. Otherwise you have to start thinking and learning and practising.
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #12 on: 23:13:55, 11-11-2007 »

"vaguely interesting in the same sort of way as loads of other people who have been here before and can't be bothered to go any further" is one's bag, is already enough. Otherwise you have to start thinking and learning and practising.

I think we would be in agreement that the HUGE majority of violinists and clarinettists and [insert instrument here  Roll Eyes] likewise get no further than "vaguely interesting in the same sort of way as loads of other people who have been here before and can't be bothered to go any further"... Smiley

There's a terrific bowmaker in Germany who also bases his designs on a combination of careful measurements of originals and paintings from the time:

www.bows-viols.de/index_eng.htm

I know this approach is standard for most makers of early instruments, but some seem better at it than others.  I suppose you have to choose your sources carefully.

There was a clarinettist a little while back who wrote a thesis examining the measurements of various clarinets that are supposedly 'after Lotz' - that is, made as a copy of the only surviving clarinet by Theodor Lotz, who built Stadler's clarinet. They were, it seems, all very different from the original, some spectacularly so. I've played a Lotz-model clarinet by Andreas Schöni and I have one by Peter van der Poel; they're certainly completely different beasts although I couldn't tell you which is closer to the original.

There's a recorder maker who stopped making 'Ganassi' recorders recently because he couldn't see their use nowadays as the standard Renaissance solo model as being authentic... I'll have a ferret around.
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #13 on: 23:20:10, 11-11-2007 »

Adrian Brown, to be precise.

http://www.adrianbrown.org/recorder_types/

You'll probably have to click on 'Ganassi' recorders in the menu.
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Kittybriton
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« Reply #14 on: 00:37:31, 12-11-2007 »

Hmm. Not sure if I have anything meaningful to contribute here, although I have built some instruments. The most challenging by far are the recorders (no notable successes I'm afraid, although I do have a rather primitive renaissance instrument that gets an airing once in a blue moon).

Perhaps the most important thing I learned from my instrument building is that the historic makers managed a good deal more sophistication than might be expected without the benefit of machine technology. It does seem that most instruments demand quite a high level of precision in the craftsmanship beyond the basic ability to work with wood or metal.
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