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Author Topic: Bows and Bowing technique  (Read 700 times)
A
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« Reply #45 on: 23:04:37, 07-07-2008 »

I think he had the same as mine.
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Well, there you are.
Baz
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« Reply #46 on: 00:19:36, 08-07-2008 »

A few more words on the "Bach wrote chords so chords they shall be" argument: actually, as Oliver points out, he didn't really write chords but separately-stemmed notes, besides which he wrote all kinds of things (dotted notes over triplets for example) which likewise relate to a view of notation somewhat different from more recent notions (though the idea that musical notation is supposed to specify exactly everything that a performer needs to do to realise the score is I think unmusical and pedantic whichever period you're looking at). So we're left with one piece of iconographic evidence so far... is that all we're going to get, Baz?

This is beginning to stretch the semantics of the English language to a point which it cannot reasonably be expected to bear! You are not telling me, Richard (are you?), that because the notes aligned with each other are individually stemmed they are therefore not chords? Well, if you look at virtually any one of the Preludes from the '48 (not even taking in the fugues!) you will still find that differing notes in vertical alignment are stemmed separately. But this does not mean - does it? - that they are not CHORDS? And we are not even here encumbered with an argument about whether the hands that played them were expected to use curved or straight fingers, are we?

I don't know whether you are asking me to provide for you iconographical evidence that Bach himself intended this movement to use a curved bow - if you are then I cannot take your request seriously. If, however, you are asking for iconographical evidence to support the notion that curved bows were quite normal - and complaining that I have only given a single example - then that is a different matter.

It is not at all difficult to provide evidence that curved bows were, for centuries, perfectly normal and routine. But most examples cover their use with members of the Viol family (not surprisingly, since this was the standard bowed instrument throughout the Renaissance and early Baroque when most iconographical sources were produced). But their use also with members of the Violin family is documented quite clearly as early as 1511 in Germany by Virdung, as seen here:



They are also shown by Agricola in 1528:



...and again by Gerle in 1532:



Moreover, the following woodcut from Prague dates from 1614:



We could simply go on providing images like this (and you could really find them for yourself if you could be bothered). But to save further time and patience you may care to CLICK HERE and just scroll down the huge number of images. On this link (which defaults only to P. 4 of the source) try clicking on any of the other pages listed at the head, and you will find even more images.

So it seems, does it not, that the curved bow had always been the normal equipment for bowed instruments for centuries, and that it was still being documented and illustrated well into the 17th and 18th centuries.

Now I am not expecting you to be in any way convinced enough by any of this so as to change your evidently entrenched views as to how you wish the Bach piece to sound - and why should you? The glory of this piece is that it still sounds perfectly good performed in the way to which we are accustomed. But there is absolutely nothing whatsoever in Bach's notation that in any way rules out the use of such a bow.

With regard to Ollie's point about the way these supposed chords must end (as opposed to beginning), the stroke of the bow does not have to be continuous for the instrument to continue sounding the notes struck (unlike on a modern violin). Rather like a viol, the resonance of the instrument itself would continue to sustain the pitches after the bow is withdrawn, provided that the fingers remain upon the strings that are already vibrating. So the first bar (for example) can actually sound exactly as it is notated (if desired) by keeping the LH position while the bow again strikes the final quaver A.

Baz
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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #47 on: 01:25:58, 08-07-2008 »

Ummmm, aren't those instruments pictured by Agricola (above) rebecs, and not viols?   Smiley

AFAIK the viol was always typified as having a flat back & curved sides - whereas those rebec-looking instruments are carved out of a solid hunk of wood, like a giant soup-spoon Smiley   Also the viol had a fretted fingerboard (as correctly shown by Gerle above), whereas the rebec was fretless.

But yes, the curved bow is common to both.  Medieval fidels are often shown as having a bow with an even more exaggerated curve than the ones above.
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Sydney Grew
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« Reply #48 on: 02:02:38, 08-07-2008 »

We could simply go on providing images like this (and you could really find them for yourself if you could be bothered).

None of these images helps to answer what we think is a more important question than that relating to the curvature of the bow. We think the lateral curvature of the bridge - from one side of the instrument towards the other  - is much more significant! And of secondary significance is the lateral curvature of the finger-board (i.e. also from one side of the instrument towards the other). What sort of hump does the bridge offer? That is of first-rate importance. And what sort of hump is there on the bridge end (the finger end that is) of the finger-board? That is of second-rate importance. And how is the bow-stick curved? That is really only of third-rate importance!

So we need to see ancient but accurate drawings of these instruments a) from the side, showing by how much the strings were raised relative to each other, and b) from the end, showing the width of the bridge, the shape of its hump, and the lateral separation of the strings. A challenging quest what since as has already been stated the ancients did not much care for accuracy - but a quest we trust not entirely beyond the erudition and genius of our entire membership.
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richard barrett
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« Reply #49 on: 10:02:52, 08-07-2008 »

Hmm... I don't know about "entrenched", but (a) I see no violins in any of those pictures, (b) would you use the third illustration to demonstrate that in 1532 some highly unorthodox methods of fingering and holding the bow were in use? (and, if not, what use is it to prove anything?), and (c) by the same token, why should we assume that the artist of the final illustration knew any more about accurately depicting musical instruments than he did about accurately depicting the human body?
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #50 on: 10:11:45, 08-07-2008 »

We could simply go on providing images like this (and you could really find them for yourself if you could be bothered).

Yes, it seems you could. Any chance of keeping them to the right century, country and instrument though?
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Ruby2
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« Reply #51 on: 10:18:03, 08-07-2008 »

And what sort of hump is there on the bridge end (the finger end that is) of the finger-board?
The bridge end isn't the finger end Sydney, well not unless you're perpetually in a very high position...  Smiley

I presume you meant the 'nut' at the finger end, ie the opposing resting point for the strings to the bridge.  I suppose it'll contribute very slightly to the curvature of the strings but unless pre-modern violins/viols were bowed much further away from the bridge I should imagine it has very little effect.  But of course you imply that already.
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Baz
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« Reply #52 on: 10:47:16, 08-07-2008 »

We could simply go on providing images like this (and you could really find them for yourself if you could be bothered).

Yes, it seems you could. Any chance of keeping them to the right century, country and instrument though?

But this is precisely what I did as long ago as message #6 which gave a link that included the frontispiece to the Musikalisches Lexikon edited by Bach's cousin J.G. Walther and published in 1732, shown again here...



You can lead a horse to water, but you can't...

Baz
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #53 on: 10:50:57, 08-07-2008 »

We could simply go on providing images like this (and you could really find them for yourself if you could be bothered).

Yes, it seems you could. Any chance of keeping them to the right century, country and instrument though?

But this is precisely what I did as long ago as message #6 which gave a link that included the frontispiece to the Musikalisches Lexikon edited by Bach's cousin J.G. Walther and published in 1732, shown again here...



You can lead a horse to water, but you can't...

Baz
Yes. We saw this. We then saw lots of pictures of viols from two centuries previously.

Are these instruments playing solo repertoire? No, they are not. Are they even violins? Good question - they do in any case seem to have rather a lot of strings. Are the demands of solo repertoire in any case very considerably greater than those of orchestral parts to the extent that they might require different hardware? Yes, they are. Are there other pictures of violins from the time that might shed more light on the subject? Over, again, to you.
« Last Edit: 10:52:56, 08-07-2008 by oliver sudden » Logged
Baz
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« Reply #54 on: 10:55:52, 08-07-2008 »

Hmm... I don't know about "entrenched", but (a) I see no violins in any of those pictures, (b) would you use the third illustration to demonstrate that in 1532 some highly unorthodox methods of fingering and holding the bow were in use? (and, if not, what use is it to prove anything?), and (c) by the same token, why should we assume that the artist of the final illustration knew any more about accurately depicting musical instruments than he did about accurately depicting the human body?

Yes you did see violins - even from the right century, even from the right country, even in an illustration dating from 1732, even edited by Walther, who was even a cousin of J. S. Bach! You saw this (I assume) in the link I gave in message #6, and have repeated separately in message #60. Now having led you to water, only you can decide whether or not you are thirsty!

You asked for iconographical materials, and I provided them. But you (as well as I) know the dangers of interpreting them too literally - since they are artistic representations only. But you seem to be suggesting something here like the animated cartoon convention whereby any depicted characters always have only 3 fingers. In the pictures, all the humans have two arms, two legs, two eyes, two ears, and five digits on every limb. By the same token, all the bows depicted are curved and not straight.

But only when you are thirsty will you drink.

Baz
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Baz
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« Reply #55 on: 11:00:09, 08-07-2008 »

...Are there other pictures of violins from the time that might shed more light on the subject? Over, again, to you.

No Ollie - I think I've done more than enough work here. It's now over to you. Perhaps you might provide for us some graphic evidence to show violinists (or other string players) from the period concerned playing with straight (or better still concave) bows. I have a feeling that if you can then I am more ready to be convinced of your position than you are of mine (on the evidence I have come up with).

Baz
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #56 on: 11:05:57, 08-07-2008 »

Baz, I don't think anything you've shown us is unequivocally even a violin. Nothing you say about the Walther picture alters the fact that the vast majority of your images are centuries away from Bach. And calling your fellow boarders horses is hardly going to help proceedings.

Here are Praetorius's viols and violins anyway. Mmm, look at those straight bows. I'll keep googling.

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Ruby2
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« Reply #57 on: 11:08:03, 08-07-2008 »

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't...
...teach it double-stopping. No opposable thumbs.
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #58 on: 11:11:34, 08-07-2008 »

http://hoffer-bows.com/index.php?show=violin

Might be worth a look. There are a couple of things which point at Germany in the early 18th century.

http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/bow.htm

Also worth a look. There seem to be annoyingly few pictures of Baroque violinists online... but Marais's gamba bow is certainly there in fine detail.

http://www.earlymusicshop.com/cat/stringinstruments/bows/bows.htm

I do wish they might be a bit more forthcoming on what their historical models actually were...
« Last Edit: 11:21:49, 08-07-2008 by oliver sudden » Logged
Baz
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« Reply #59 on: 11:16:59, 08-07-2008 »

I don't think they are that straight - they are curved enough to provide differing tensions by thumbing the hairs, and curved enough (through this technique) to provide chords should they be needed. And this was published in 1619 - anything from the 18th c. perhaps?

BTW I was not calling members horses, but merely citing a well-worn adage that expresses the difficulty of convincing others of something that they do not wish to be convinced about.

Baz
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