Googling "Ashmolean No. 19 bow" comes up with this



which may or may not count as one for Baz's side of the argument.  


You know I had a very long hard think about that when I tapped it out because a small voice from memory was trying to tell me just that. But I foolishly dismissed it on the grounds that if it's tighter it ought to be, er, no hang on ... if it's shorter then it ought to be ... Don't mind me, I'll work it out.      

John,

Many thanks for separating out the stands of the bow!

Now, where were we?

Is it possible to simultaneously sound 4 strings at the start of a chord on a modern set up?  Yes, but the pressure required would mean this is only really suitable for loud chords.  Also tricky regarding tone, and has huge difficulty for the rest of the note.  In practice, not worth bothering about.

Is it possible to simultaneously sustain the sound of 4 strings on a modern set up?  No.  Sorry if I'm wrong, but there are limits!  Disgusting noise would come out if you tried.

Is it possible to simultaneously sustain the sound of 3 strings on a modern set up?  Yes, although as Ruby says, there's the problem of the middle voice coming out too much.  One slight complication is that the higher strings sound brighter and are more easily picked up by the ears, so you can weight the chord to the lower strings to balance things out a bit - but the middle string will always sound just that bit too loud.  (More of the bow-hair is in contact with the string at the same pressure as at least one of the other strings.)

And what is possible on a genuine baroque bow?  I'll have to leave that to strina.

And what is possible on that bow from Baz's article?  It seems simultaneous sounding at start and throughout 4 part chords.  Although I have to question the simultaneous start to 4 parters.  To do this would require pressure downwards to get contact with all 4 strings before lateral movement.  At speed this is almost impossible - hence (I believe) how in the music clip the chords sometimes start slightly spread and then sustain together.

That's a load of questions about what is possible.  Then there are others?

What is authentic?  Much of this thread so far - which is almost turning into an "oh yes it is oh no it isn't" pantomine.

What is desirable?  Whether spread is authentic or not, I don't particularly like it.  The multiple sounding of notes at the start of a chord inherently adds a rhythmic aspect which can 'get in the way' of the music.  The one I find really distressing is when 4 part chords have the voice in the bottom note of the chord.  The practice of spreading upwards a 4 part chord only to immediately spread back down to get to the bottom voice just has too many sounds involved!  I believe some Russian players approach this by just starting at the top and ending with the dominant voice - but then that sounds peculiar when amidst bottom up chords.

For me, minimal spreading is the key.

Any other points?

Tommo

Surely this performance of Carlino Angeloni's sonata for viola da gamba in three movements answers any performance practice questions that reasonable Members might still have on the subject.

(Lampenfieber: stage fright; Doppelgriffe: multiple stops (not only double); Triller von oben: trills from above.)

I thought he was clearly a student of the French school.  He-hon-he-hon 

Tommo

Incidentally, I was talking to a viol da gamba player last night, and he suggested that even by reducing the tension of his bow strings, he would not be able to play a 4 part chord.  He can just about manage 3 strings on his 6 string (consort) instrument, and you might conceivably get 4 on a 7 string french (solo) instrument.

That seems to leave Reiner's 4 part chord in a solo gamba still unsolved.  Sorry.

Tommo

It would certainly be my conclusion, yes.  I was interested to see (in that particular piece) that Handel is using the Gamba double/treble/quadruple-stopped throughout to fill the string harmonic texture...  yet leaves the viola with single notes. My guess is that he is after a specific timbre effect (especially given the exotic line-up in use)?  I'd assume that by this date the 6-string consort instrument has already fallen from professional use (although might well have been found in domestic music-making), and a 7-string French-style instrument is intended (although the bottom string isn't deployed here anyhow).

Well, I'm personally with you on that one.  But proof is an entirely different matter, especially when sought after by dogged members of this community.

I suppose the only way we'll ever prove or disprove this one is to ask Bach when we meet him (or ask Richard Dawkins to ask God to let us know when they meet... )

Tommo

Or failing that, Marin Marais.  The French have a specially-designated region with their own chefs, cheeses and wine-cellars...  although it's extremely difficult to get a white chilled to the right temperature, they say   And the Bresse Bleu goes runny...