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Author Topic: Bows and Bowing technique  (Read 700 times)
Sydney Grew
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« Reply #60 on: 11:24:30, 08-07-2008 »

There seem to be annoyingly few pictures of Baroque violinists online...

There are a few side views here which may help, and on the connected pages; in particular see "VIOLA DA BRACCIO. BRUXELLES," "Gabbiani (1685)," and "Horemans (1770)."
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Baz
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« Reply #61 on: 11:28:22, 08-07-2008 »

[I shall be offline until about 9pm, but will look forward to seeing what others have come up with when I return.]

Baz
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Ruby2
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« Reply #62 on: 11:29:02, 08-07-2008 »

There are a few side views here which may help, and on the connected pages; in particular see "VIOLA DA BRACCIO. BRUXELLES," "Gabbiani (1685)," and "Horemans (1770)."

...but unless pre-modern violins/viols were bowed much further away from the bridge...

Well there certainly appears to be the option to bow much further from the bridge...

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oliver sudden
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« Reply #63 on: 11:34:28, 08-07-2008 »

http://www.music.ed.ac.uk/euchmi/ucj/ucjtc.html
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George Garnett
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« Reply #64 on: 11:40:24, 08-07-2008 »

I know this is a silly question since the answer is presumably implicit in the fact that there is a debate at all, but is it really the case that there are no extant violin bows at all, anywhere, from Bach's time? That's extremely odd isn't it, since there are surely (aren't there?) violins surviving from that period.

And, just to help me keep my bearings on the point at issue, my understanding is that modern, replica, HIP, 'baroque' violin bows are essentially straight but if you tighten them up probably more than you should they would tend to bend slightly outwards (unlike 'modern' violin bows which would bend slightly more inwards than they already do). There are other differences too  -  possibly more important   -  but that seems to be the difference currently at issue.

If so, have I got it right that Richard's/Ollie's/Tommo's argument is that current HIP practice has got it broadly right (or maybe not?) and Baz's argument is that current 'HIP' practice is actually wrong (in terms of historical accuracy anyway)?

I look forward to Strina's comments on all this Smiley (I mean the whole thing not my trying-to-keep-up questions).
« Last Edit: 11:45:45, 08-07-2008 by George Garnett » Logged
oliver sudden
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« Reply #65 on: 11:59:12, 08-07-2008 »

I also look forward immensely to something from strina especially on specific historical models.

But yes, George, I do think that even if everyone plays the Chaconne too slowly for me  Wink they're still for the most part using more or less the right shape of bow, and that plenty of players are approaching the chordal writing in the way Bach most likely envisaged it. (For what it's worth I also don't personally think that the 'reverse arpeggio' mentioned at http://www.baroquemusic.org/barvlnbo.html is the best approach for the passage the writer is referring to, but I also know I'm not the only one.) I see nothing whatsoever in the article we've been discussing to make me doubt that with any seriousness; what I do see is a lot of misplaced pedantry, and hot air about non-evidence (such as Bach's use of the word 'arpeggio').

One last batch of bows:

http://www.baroquebows.net/orpheon/
« Last Edit: 12:08:32, 08-07-2008 by oliver sudden » Logged
richard barrett
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« Reply #66 on: 12:02:49, 08-07-2008 »

Seconded. Where is that strina? There's never a baroque violinist around when you need one.
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strinasacchi
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« Reply #67 on: 13:57:47, 08-07-2008 »

Oh dear, expectation and pressure.  Well, to start here are a couple of pictures:





These accompany the beginning of this article by historical bowmaker Hans Reiners, which I think is fascinating.  His bows are wonderful; I've played on three of his models, and own the one based on the picture above (a painting in Nostell Priory of five English musicians in 1661, presumably members of the King's private music).  It is by far the most outcurved of all my bows, and is nothing like the nearly semi-circular things you see in some (usually much earlier) pictures.

If I understand Baz and Ollie correctly, they both seem to assume that a concave bow will always be capable of bearing more tension than a convex one.  This is not entirely true.  The article above makes clear it's important to consider how the hair is attached.  With a screw-adjusted bow, one end of the hair is attached to the frog, which then slides back and forth.  If you do it up too tightly, the frog starts to pull away from the stick - a clear sign you ought to stop winding!  With a modern bow, I was always taught never to do it up to the point where the stick starts to straighten out - having some give and gentle springiness is important to spiccato techniques that you don't really use in earlier music (at least not in the same way).

With a clip-in frog, both ends of the hair are attached directly to the stick.  Tension is created by inserting the frog (basically a wedge) between the hair and stick; it stays in place by slotting into a pre-formed groove that keeps it from moving around once it's under tension.  The woods they would have been using (yew, well-known for making more lethal kinds of bows, and later snakewood which is even better at combining strength with flexibility) were capable of holding huge amounts of tension without distorting or breaking.  So the fact of an outcurve is no indication of looser tension - if anything, the higher a frog you insert, the more outcurved the bow will flex, and the more tense the bow will be.

Some reproduction baroque bows do have screws in place - it's a useful compromise when, say, touring through many different climates or getting on lots of airplanes (humidity and temperature changes affect the hair pretty drastically).  My "standard" early 18th century bow, made by these makers, has an inauthentic screw (ahem, no sniggering at the back).  But I always do it up to a tension that's more similar to a clip-in bow than a modern concave bow.  It simply works better that way - the sound is clearer, more focused, more various and supple too.

Baz mentions adjusting the tension of a bow by thumbing the hairs.  This is a gambist's technique using an underhand grip placing not just the thumb but also some fingers around the hair in such a way that enables the player to "pull" slightly at the hair and increase the tension.  Violinists never did this.  It is true that in the early 17th century many violinists would have placed their thumbs on the outside of the hair, but this was just a style of grip.

So from my experience (and I spent a long time looking for the right bows, still not quite there yet and made a couple of mistakes along the way - anyone want to buy a Matthew Coltman pre-classical-twig-hybrid thingy? it's very nice, just not something I have any need for), the outcurve is more pronounced the earlier the model, and the more pronounced the outcurve the more tense the bow is, therefore the more difficult it is to play simultaneous or near simultaneous chords.  The more tense or strong the bow is (within limits), the easier it is to make a good sound on uncovered gut strings at an appropriate tension (quite a bit higher than on a gamba).

But is it really desirable to play chords simultaneously?  This is maybe the bigger question.  Would it actually sound good (I won't even mention whether it's "historically appropriate") to have the bow able to sustain over 3/4 strings at once?  One thing that makes contrapuntal writing interesting is being able to differentiate voices.  Having a blanket over all notes at once would distract from that.  Also consider for a moment an instrument which is capable of having up to 10 notes sounding simultaneously - the harpsichord.  How annoying would chords sound on that instrument if they were all always played simultaneously?  Most players will spread even a double-stop.  Harpsichordists always seem to save simultaneous chords for very special effects - moments of "stopping" or hesitating.  Even pianists playing baroque music on their steinways seem to appreciate the musical possibilities of spreading chords.  On chamber organ perhaps spreading is less frequent, more contained and less noticeable, but on that instrument you can hear that the really interesting players will vary the release of notes in a way that will emphasise a certain voice or line over others.

The other problem with imagining that one's equipment ought to be adapted to enable easier chordal playing is that no piece is ever entirely chordal.  Every fugue has an episode, every chaconne has its more linear variations.  At the same time, thinking that only the chordal writing is contrapuntal also does a disservice to the player, who ought to learn to bring out different voices and an underlying bass even in the linear passages.  These two aspects of playing are actually more similar to each other than all this talk of technique and equipment implies.

One more thing - Bach's use of the arpeggio abbreviation.  This can be traced directly to Biber (although he spelled it harpeggio), and is really no more than a shorthand that allows the writer/engraver not to have to spell out loads of hemisemidemiquavers.  It is only used when arpeggiation of a long chordal passage is supposed to happen rhythmically.  This is quite different from spreading chords - which, while it shouldn't happen in a way that disrupts the overall rhythm of a piece, does not follow a prescribed and notatable rhythmic pattern.  Sometimes you spread quickly, sometimes slowly.  Sometimes you start quickly and finish slowly, or vice versa.  Sometimes you spread over the four strings very distinctly, sometimes you blur the adjacent notes together into double-stops.  Sometimes you linger on a single note somewhere.  Sometimes you lighten the touch as you spread upwards, sometimes you practically crescendo upwards.  But you very, very, very rarely ever spread downwards, even if the prevailing line is in the bass.

Ok, I've wittered on for long enough.  Let's see how many other replies happened while I was writing my reply.

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Only the one - I'm here, I'm here!
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #68 on: 14:09:08, 08-07-2008 »

Also consider for a moment an instrument which is capable of having up to 10 notes sounding simultaneously - the harpsichord.

(I know Scarlatti wrote up to 11, with one of the thumbs playing 'on the crack' - I could never find 12 though Wink)

If I understand Baz and Ollie correctly, they both seem to assume that a concave bow will always be capable of bearing more tension than a convex one.

Don't think I said that but if I did I didn't mean to. Smiley I've seen a convex bow turn concave and it was certainly tighter when it did so! (And then looser again shortly after Sad)

Thanks strina for giving us something a bit more Praxisnah.
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A
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« Reply #69 on: 14:11:32, 08-07-2008 »

Quote
I do think that even if everyone plays the Chaconne too slowly for me

How fast do YOU play it ollie? Roll Eyes

A
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Well, there you are.
oliver sudden
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« Reply #70 on: 14:14:06, 08-07-2008 »

When I play it on my iPod it takes about 8 1/2 minutes Wink
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richard barrett
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« Reply #71 on: 14:24:54, 08-07-2008 »

Thank you, strina, for taking the time and trouble with that.

Regarding the spreading of chords, I believe I would be not wildly inaccurate in saying that in baroque violin music this would ultimately derive (erhaps via keyboard music) from the French style brisé as used by lutenists of the late 16th/early 17th century. The lute of course is just as able to play simultaneous notes as the harpsichord, and I think in both cases the avoidance of this would be motivated by a wish to hear all the pitches of the chord without the piled-up inharmonic jangle that would result from all those synchronised plucks (ahem). Among modern harpsichordists, Ton Koopman is much given to emphasising chords by hitting them simultaneously and rather forcibly, and the result is that the harmony is less clear than it would be in the hands of a more elegant player like his teacher Gustav Leonhardt. The lute and harpsichord also are not sustaining instruments so, in so far as they provided a model for bowed-instrument polyphony, sustaining all the pitches of a chord in the latter would not be an idiomatic way to play, regardless of bow design, concerning which I'd be much more convinced by even ambiguous written documents than by dodgy iconography (which I believe is generally taken far too seriously by musicologists anyway).
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #72 on: 14:28:04, 08-07-2008 »

Also consider for a moment an instrument which is capable of having up to 10 notes sounding simultaneously - the harpsichord.  How annoying would chords sound on that instrument if they were all always played simultaneously?  Most players will spread even a double-stop.  Harpsichordists always seem to save simultaneous chords for very special effects - moments of "stopping" or hesitating.  Even pianists playing baroque music on their steinways seem to appreciate the musical possibilities of spreading chords.  On chamber organ perhaps spreading is less frequent, more contained and less noticeable, but on that instrument you can hear that the really interesting players will vary the release of notes in a way that will emphasise a certain voice or line over others.
Not just on the harpischord, chamber organ, or for pianists playing baroque music: in the nineteenth century it was very common for performers to spread many chords that were not written as such, and to play parts slightly out of synchronisation (left hand before right hand or vice versa, or staggering parts within a single hand) - this practice continued well into the twentieth century. And there were/are many ways of doing this, many different speeds/rates of change of speed for the spread, to emphasise and bring out particular pitches according to their harmonic function. This approach probably derived ultimately from harpischord playing, but was still extremely fruitful on an instrument permitting localised dynamic variation.
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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« Reply #73 on: 14:54:07, 08-07-2008 »

Thanks strina for giving us something a bit more Praxisnah.
I wonder if that was ever a nymoduesp for Hans Arp.
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strinasacchi
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« Reply #74 on: 15:11:04, 08-07-2008 »

I know this is a silly question since the answer is presumably implicit in the fact that there is a debate at all, but is it really the case that there are no extant violin bows at all, anywhere, from Bach's time? That's extremely odd isn't it, since there are surely (aren't there?) violins surviving from that period.

And, just to help me keep my bearings on the point at issue, my understanding is that modern, replica, HIP, 'baroque' violin bows are essentially straight but if you tighten them up probably more than you should they would tend to bend slightly outwards (unlike 'modern' violin bows which would bend slightly more inwards than they already do). There are other differences too  -  possibly more important   -  but that seems to be the difference currently at issue.
 

George - not a silly question at all.  That article I cited in my last message explains that many original bows were lost or destroyed - many more than violins, as violins could be adjusted and adapted to suit new styles, but bows couldn't.  Who knows how many runner beans were grown up old bow sticks?

There are a few old bows here and there but are very rare and most are in museums.  There's a very well-known one in the Ashmolean from 1721.  Everyone refers to it as "no.19" because that's how it's labelled in the case.  Many current baroque bow makers have a no.19 model.  The problem is, most of them are copying other copies rather than looking directly at the original.  Most tellingly, many players don't even seem to be aware that the original no.19 is a clip-in frog, as most makers have adapted a screw frog onto their models.  What originally alerted me to Hans Reiners' integrity as a bowmaker was his fidelity to the original no.19.

When I was searching for my classical bow, I had the chance to play on an original late baroque bow (probably 1740-ish?) that was being offered by Sotheby's.  That was very interesting.  My guess at the date is very much a guess - Sotheby's description offered no insight!  It was lovely but felt a bit tired.  And wasn't what I was looking for anyway... oh to have a limitless budget...

You're quite right that baroque bows curve out more as you tighten them, but actually the opposite happens with modern concave bows - the more you tighten those, the straighter they become.


Regarding the spreading of chords, I believe I would be not wildly inaccurate in saying that in baroque violin music this would ultimately derive (erhaps via keyboard music) from the French style brisé as used by lutenists of the late 16th/early 17th century. The lute of course is just as able to play simultaneous notes as the harpsichord, and I think in both cases the avoidance of this would be motivated by a wish to hear all the pitches of the chord without the piled-up inharmonic jangle that would result from all those synchronised plucks (ahem). Among modern harpsichordists, Ton Koopman is much given to emphasising chords by hitting them simultaneously and rather forcibly, and the result is that the harmony is less clear than it would be in the hands of a more elegant player like his teacher Gustav Leonhardt. The lute and harpsichord also are not sustaining instruments so, in so far as they provided a model for bowed-instrument polyphony, sustaining all the pitches of a chord in the latter would not be an idiomatic way to play, regardless of bow design, concerning which I'd be much more convinced by even ambiguous written documents than by dodgy iconography (which I believe is generally taken far too seriously by musicologists anyway).


Richard, I totally agree about harmonic clarity and style brisé.  I'm not so bothered about the judicious use of iconography, though, as long as it takes into account many other factors too (not least of which is the artistic ability - or lack thereof - shown in the works being cited...)

OK, I'd better be off again - busy week ahead - but will try to have a look how this discussion develops from time to time.
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