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Author Topic: (Preludes &) Fugues  (Read 2076 times)
richard barrett
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« Reply #15 on: 19:12:24, 26-06-2007 »

Have any composers on this board ever written a fugue? I'm guessing Alistair would have, but maybe richard or jenny has somehow done something with the concept too?
Not really, in my case, I mean I think I could probably come up with something fugue-like if my life depended on it, but I haven't actually written down anything of that sort since I was 19 or so. However, in the past eight years or so I've been getting increasingly interested in things like canons by augmentation (often intervallic as well as durational). I think the fugue as such is somewhat too specific in terms of texture and structure and tonality.
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ahinton
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« Reply #16 on: 21:28:35, 26-06-2007 »

Have any composers on this board ever written a fugue? I'm guessing Alistair would have, but maybe richard or jenny has somehow done something with the concept too?
Not really, in my case, I mean I think I could probably come up with something fugue-like if my life depended on it, but I haven't actually written down anything of that sort since I was 19 or so. However, in the past eight years or so I've been getting increasingly interested in things like canons by augmentation (often intervallic as well as durational). I think the fugue as such is somewhat too specific in terms of texture and structure and tonality.
Yes - several (since mention of my name implies being asked). There a double one towards the close of my Variations and Fugue on a theme of Grieg, for piano (though it doesn't see itself through to what would probably be thought of as a proper fugal conclusion), a triple one in the final of my String Quintet (albeit ditto per Grieg Variations re its non-conclusion) and another double one in my organ piece Pansophić for John Ogdon (the first part of which is in six voices). There's another triple one in my Sequentia Claviensis for piano (the first of which is again in six voices) and, since Szymanowski has been mentioned earlier, one of the hardest I've ever written is towards the close of my Szymanowski-Etiud for 18 wind instruments. These last two are based on broken fragments from others' themes ("Faustian" ones in the first instance - Liszt's A Faust Symphony, Busoni's Doktor Faust and Quasi-Faust from Alkan's Grande Sonate), Op. 33 - and "Szymanowskian" ones in the second - shards from his three piano sonatas, etc.). The reason why the Symanowski one was so tricky to write is that it is a three-voice triple fugue in which all three sections run simultaneously - i.e. nine voices, of which 1, 4 and 7 have the first fugue subject, 2, 5 & 8 the second and 3, 6 & 9 the third, making a nine-voice exposition that was so exhausting that all semblance of fugue dissolves at the end of the exposition).

Advice to Richard (if I may make so bold); never write a fugue "if you life depends on it" - otherwise you might just risk ending up finding that your life may depend on doing it again aat some point...

Apparently, at the time when Boulez was between his first two piano sonatas, Dutilleux was working a fugues (albeit only at the privacy of his composition desk - none of us has since been party to the results)...

Best,

Alistair
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jennyhorn
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« Reply #17 on: 22:18:04, 26-06-2007 »

i've heard several of Alistair's Fugues -as part of a massive piano piece which Powell premiered at the Warehouse last year-i liked them very much-
Alexander Levine has also written a good set.

i've never written a fugue -a string orchestra piece i recently wrote toyed with the idea but too loosely.
I've learnt many (Bach) so it's something i should take on board in my composing.
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increpatio
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« Reply #18 on: 22:26:32, 26-06-2007 »

...since Szymanowski has been mentioned earlier, one of the hardest I've ever written is towards the close of my Szymanowski-Etiud for 18 wind instruments. These last two are based on broken fragments from others' themes ("Faustian" ones in the first instance - Liszt's A Faust Symphony, Busoni's Doktor Faust and Quasi-Faust from Alkan's Grande Sonate), Op. 33 - and "Szymanowskian" ones in the second - shards from his three piano sonatas, etc.). The reason why the Symanowski one was so tricky to write is that it is a three-voice triple fugue in which all three sections run simultaneously - i.e. nine voices, of which 1, 4 and 7 have the first fugue subject, 2, 5 & 8 the second and 3, 6 & 9 the third, making a nine-voice exposition that was so exhausting that all semblance of fugue dissolves at the end of the exposition).

You mean that each of these groups of three are playing in unison, or is there some part of the image I'm not getting?
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ahinton
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« Reply #19 on: 06:42:29, 27-06-2007 »

...since Szymanowski has been mentioned earlier, one of the hardest I've ever written is towards the close of my Szymanowski-Etiud for 18 wind instruments. These last two are based on broken fragments from others' themes ("Faustian" ones in the first instance - Liszt's A Faust Symphony, Busoni's Doktor Faust and Quasi-Faust from Alkan's Grande Sonate), Op. 33 - and "Szymanowskian" ones in the second - shards from his three piano sonatas, etc.). The reason why the Symanowski one was so tricky to write is that it is a three-voice triple fugue in which all three sections run simultaneously - i.e. nine voices, of which 1, 4 and 7 have the first fugue subject, 2, 5 & 8 the second and 3, 6 & 9 the third, making a nine-voice exposition that was so exhausting that all semblance of fugue dissolves at the end of the exposition).

You mean that each of these groups of three are playing in unison, or is there some part of the image I'm not getting?
No - sorry, this is abit of a problem to explain but I'm sure I can do it better than I did, so here goes. What happens is that the fugal exposition comprises nine separate entries altogether, as follows - voice 1 (subject 1), then voice 2 (subject 2), then voice 3 (subject 3), then voice 4 (subject 1), then voice 5 (subject 2), etc. - with the effect that three 3-voice fugal expositions are running more or less concurrently; I hope that I've made more sense of it now! (after writing that, I must admit to feeling as though I never wanted to create another fugue again and have indeed not written another one since...)

Best,

Alistair
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time_is_now
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« Reply #20 on: 09:17:50, 27-06-2007 »

my Szymanowski-Etiud for 18 wind instruments
I'd be strangely keen to hear that piece!
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martle
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« Reply #21 on: 14:34:42, 27-06-2007 »

Had to write a few as a student (tonal and atonal), but not since. I have written a 16-minute single movement piece which employs a double ground bass throughout, though. I'm well-hard, me.  Cheesy
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Chafing Dish
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« Reply #22 on: 15:03:38, 27-06-2007 »

No - sorry, this is abit of a problem to explain but I'm sure I can do it better than I did, so here goes. What happens is that the fugal exposition comprises nine separate entries altogether, as follows - voice 1 (subject 1), then voice 2 (subject 2), then voice 3 (subject 3), then voice 4 (subject 1), then voice 5 (subject 2), etc. - with the effect that three 3-voice fugal expositions are running more or less concurrently; I hope that I've made more sense of it now! (after writing that, I must admit to feeling as though I never wanted to create another fugue again and have indeed not written another one since...)
Please make this work available for study. I don't believe you did this. It's unprecedented. It's one thing to write 40-part counterpoint, another to write thematic/imitative counterpoint, yet another to continuously obey the rules and conventions of fugue.

Which rules of fugue writing did you keep intact? Intervals of entry? Overall harmonic and voice leading considerations? Metric restrictions?

You don't really have to answer any of that, nor do you really have to show me your score; I am just trying to express my flabbergastiture.

Also, martle, what is an atonal fugue in your book? Is it as difficult to write as a 'tonal' one? In general do people think writing a fugue in the style of Handel is harder or easier than writing one in the style of Schostakovich? I know that's a problematic question, but I believe the former is more difficult, since the rules are more well-established. Is this too simplistic? (I don't mean to imply that Schostakovich is atonal, but I do mean to imply that he doesn't mind rather quirky harmonies when the contrapuntal demands call for it, and that somehow gets subsumed into some notion of expressiveness. Also simplistic perhaps, but I'd be willing to elaborate)

An atonal fugue I know is Lutoslawski's for 13 strings. I don't find that a particularly good piece, but it is a fugue, and it is 'atonal'. Are there other notable examples?

Also, please explain a double ground bass: two bass lines going along at once? or alternating, like in 'double variations'?

Also, what does "well-hard" mean? Is it like Well-Tempered, or is it something naughty?
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martle
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« Reply #23 on: 15:18:10, 27-06-2007 »

Well, CD, my favourite 'atonal' fugue is the one that forms the opening movement of Bartok, Music for Strings, Percussion and Celeste. Tellingly, though, despite its lack of 'functional tonality', Bartok's obsession with cycles of fifths at this time leads him to obey more of the 'rules' pertaining to tonal fugue than he might otherwise have done...
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ahinton
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« Reply #24 on: 15:22:02, 27-06-2007 »

No - sorry, this is abit of a problem to explain but I'm sure I can do it better than I did, so here goes. What happens is that the fugal exposition comprises nine separate entries altogether, as follows - voice 1 (subject 1), then voice 2 (subject 2), then voice 3 (subject 3), then voice 4 (subject 1), then voice 5 (subject 2), etc. - with the effect that three 3-voice fugal expositions are running more or less concurrently; I hope that I've made more sense of it now! (after writing that, I must admit to feeling as though I never wanted to create another fugue again and have indeed not written another one since...)
Please make this work available for study. I don't believe you did this. It's unprecedented. It's one thing to write 40-part counterpoint, another to write thematic/imitative counterpoint, yet another to continuously obey the rules and conventions of fugue.

Which rules of fugue writing did you keep intact? Intervals of entry? Overall harmonic and voice leading considerations? Metric restrictions?

You don't really have to answer any of that, nor do you really have to show me your score; I am just trying to express my flabbergastiture.
That's a nice new word! The score is available only as a photocopy; it's handwritten and has not been typeset.  I fear that I may have misled readers and should accordingly emphasise that the section of the piece concerned is really only a fugal exposition rather than a full-blown fugue, although given that it is in nine parts, it's not that short! That's about as much as I think I can answer (sorry!) usefully; anything more would need to come from a perusal of that part of the score.

Best,

Alistair
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Ron Dough
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« Reply #25 on: 16:53:16, 27-06-2007 »

For the benefit of Mr Dish;

Well hard (pron. Well 'ard) is a vernacular term commonly used on the streets of southern Britain to denote the fit and rugged aspect of the subject, both in terms of bodily musculature and a psychological attitude which can withstand, indeed attack, anything that man or nature slings against it. A state of mind often induced or strengthened by the imbibing of quantities of Stellah, Fostaz, Carly Black Labew,etc., etc..
« Last Edit: 17:46:24, 27-06-2007 by Ron Dough » Logged
martle
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« Reply #26 on: 17:38:57, 27-06-2007 »

My thanks to Big Ron for expositing on the first of the two omissions (for which apologies) in my reply to CD. Exemplary!  Smiley (Sorry about the colloquialism, CD - we must always remember the truly international make-up of this forum!)
As for the other, I meant by 'double ground' a sequence of dyads rather than single notes, functioning nonetheless in a similar, often identical way to a conventional ground bass, or passacaglia. That's what I've always called this, although I'm more than happy to be corrected!
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Chafing Dish
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« Reply #27 on: 18:36:25, 27-06-2007 »

So are the dyads the same each time 'round, or does one line have more notes than the other?

Let's make this into a more general counterpoint thread. Who here has a favorite passacaglia or chaconne?

I like Frescobaldi's Cento Partite Sopra Passacagli -- which fulfills its promise of numerous run throughs of the harmonic progression, but never once actually repeats its bass line. This leads to the obvious question: why is it still a passacaglia?  Smiley

But my question is really about twientieth century attempts at this technique.
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martle
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« Reply #28 on: 18:43:44, 27-06-2007 »

I like the idea of a counterpoint thread, C20th or otherwise!

CD, yes, in my piece the dyads are the same each time round, although often inverted and often added to; so it's a closed circuit.
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Ron Dough
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« Reply #29 on: 18:51:06, 27-06-2007 »

Twentieth Century Passacaglias and Fugues? Well, Britten's got to be in there somewhere; several of his works use one or other, or both. There are the fugues in the Frank Bridge and Purcell Variations (Young Person's Guide), as well as the Prelude and Fugue for 18 part strings, and the passacaglias in Grimes, Turn of the Screw, and Noye's Fludde, just for starters: apologies to those who are allergic to his music, but I've grown up with these from childhood, and they still excite me to this day.
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