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George Garnett
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« Reply #30 on: 20:30:24, 27-06-2007 » |
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Sorry about the colloquialism. Made me laugh out loud. Biscuit crumbs everywhere  . Similar apologies to Ron's to Stravinskyphobes but the fugue in the second movement of the Symphony of Psalms is a big favourite of mine. (Or is someone going to tell me it's not really a fugue, just fug al) |
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« Last Edit: 23:00:22, 27-06-2007 by George Garnett »
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Chafing Dish
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« Reply #31 on: 21:13:50, 27-06-2007 » |
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Well, the fugue/fugato distinction is significant at times, but I for one live in a glass house, after suggesting that passacaglia technique is a form of counterpoint... Incidentally, what specific piece, if any, inspired this painting? Or is it named after fugue, the psychological phenomenon?  |
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martle
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« Reply #32 on: 21:49:02, 27-06-2007 » |
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Similar apologies to Ron's to Stravinskyphobes but the fugue in the second movement of the Symphony of Psalms is a big favourite of mine. (Or is someone going to tell me it's not really fugue, just fugal
George, it's just fug al (that reminds me too much of Fergal - as in Keane, ugh) until after the first 20 bars or something, but Igor wouldn't be alone in copping out like that. Sorry, I mean adopting a compositional strategy which takes as a starting point the exposition of a fugal argument but then transcends the necessity to play it out because of the dialectical properties of the inherent....  |
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Green. Always green.
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ahinton
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« Reply #33 on: 21:58:54, 27-06-2007 » |
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adopting a compositional strategy which takes as a starting point the exposition of a fugal argument but then transcends the necessity to play it out because of the dialectical properties of the inherent.... Forgive me for asking just out of idle curiosity, but did you write that unaided or did you defer to the services of another forum member to help you phrase your thoughts thus? - on which subject I do rather wonder whether it might now be high time for some suitably serious consideration to be accorded to the hierarchical relationships between subject and countersubject in fugues, especially given what may arguably be seen as the potentially etymological anomaly inherent in the use of the term "subject" (with its additional connotations both of "subjectivity" and of undemocratic "subjection"), side by contextual side with the counter-revolutionary meaning possibly ascribable to the term "counter-subject" - although I confess to having little or no idea which member might feel inclined to start this little ball rolling towards "the pedal-point of time" (as ISIHAC would traditionally have it)... Best, Alistair |
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Ron Dough
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« Reply #34 on: 22:10:08, 27-06-2007 » |
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Can't give you a specific answer on that one, CD, though I suspect the latter. Two from across the pond: Lenny B's Prelude, Fugue and Riffs and William Schuman's Third Symphony - an enduring Dough favourite, where the first part is split into two conjoined movements, a Passacaglia and a Fugue respectively. Hindemith was quite keen on Passacaglias, and I've a very soft spot for the fugue in the second movement of the Symphonic Metamorphosis on a theme of Weber.How about Ernst Toch's spoken Geographical Fugue? But the whackiest C20th Fugue I know is the one created by the Progressive Rock Band Gentle Giant on their seventh album Free Hand; creating a rock(-ish) fugue in itself is unusual enough, but it goes even stranger by having a fifteen-beat subject. Of course it was done in a studio by multi-tracking, but maniacs that they were, it became a set feature of their live gigs too: visual proof exists (there's quite a prelude before they launch into the fugue, btw) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yw6RzD6KrPUIf that intrigues you, see what they do with the intricacies of R.D. Laing's Knots, a typically eclectic choice of lyric for this most unusual of 70's bands. |
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« Last Edit: 22:20:23, 27-06-2007 by Ron Dough »
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #35 on: 22:13:52, 27-06-2007 » |
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Well, CD, my favourite 'atonal' fugue is the one that forms the opening movement of Bartok, Music for Strings, Percussion and Celeste. Would you really call it 'atonal'? |
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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increpatio
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« Reply #36 on: 22:17:51, 27-06-2007 » |
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When I think of atonal counterpoint, the first thing that comes to mind is Ziehn's book on chromatic Canon-writing; his method is certainly not specifically tonal. Some of Sorabji's fugues surely count as atonal I think, given that they don't all give any real feel of the tonic-dominant relationship.
It's about this point that someone should bring up this hope of Schoenberg that there be a new theory of voice-leading and counterpoint developed. Exciting stuff indeed, but no solutions in sight just yet (excepting Mazzola, Tymockzo, &c. though neither of them have yet, to my knowledge, to offer any really fantastic insights so far).
Who are the big current contrapuntalists around today? I know that most symphonists and writers of chamber music have a mastery of convincingly achieving some independence of sound between instruments, but to get a sort of continual and intricate interaction is something more particular, and would be more suited to this thread. Anyway, given my ignorance of many things modern, I'd be very much up for suggestions!
Oh yes, Alistair, your second explanation was crystal clear. Would also love to hear it some time.
I have to say that I'm not terribly interested in "strict" fugues (as "strict" fugues) any more; once the opening is out of the way, all that really matters to the listener is that there be a contrapuntal texture and that there be recognisable repetition of various motives. But then there's the fugal-aesthetic as well, that puts high value on having interlocking subjects and the like. And the fugal texture; I have to say that I do rather like Bentzon's take on the idea of fugal texture in his monophonic fugues. Then you have the people who talk about the "fugal form". Can't say I place much other than historical significance to that idea.
Oooh, thanks for that link R.D.; I'll check it out later on. Sounds fun.
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martle
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« Reply #37 on: 22:34:55, 27-06-2007 » |
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Well, CD, my favourite 'atonal' fugue is the one that forms the opening movement of Bartok, Music for Strings, Percussion and Celeste. Would you really call it 'atonal'? Ian, I think I qualified that with the rest of that post... 'Well, CD, my favourite 'atonal' fugue is the one that forms the opening movement of Bartok, Music for Strings, Percussion and Celeste. Tellingly, though, despite its lack of 'functional tonality', Bartok's obsession with cycles of fifths at this time leads him to obey more of the 'rules' pertaining to tonal fugue than he might otherwise have done...' Bartok's using 'tonal' devices (entries at the fifth/ fourth, tonic/dominant equivalencies between, in this case, A and Eb, but it's not functionally tonal, of course not. Although it's more rigorous in its acknowledgement of pitch centres than other, more ostentatiously 'atonal' fugues. And rather interesting from that point of view, I think... |
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« Last Edit: 22:51:35, 27-06-2007 by martle »
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Green. Always green.
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George Garnett
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« Reply #38 on: 22:40:00, 27-06-2007 » |
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Similar apologies to Ron's to Stravinskyphobes but the fugue in the second movement of the Symphony of Psalms is a big favourite of mine. (Or is someone going to tell me it's not really a fugue, just fugal)
George, it's just fug al (that reminds me too much of Fergal - as in Keane, ugh) until after the first 20 bars or something, but Igor wouldn't be alone in copping out like that. Sorry, I mean adopting a compositional strategy which takes as a starting point the exposition of a fugal argument but then transcends the necessity to play it out because of the dialectical properties of the inherent.... A typically fawning and hagiographic faux-explanation of Stravinsky's sickening hebephrenic, psychotic, infantile, unmediated fascism instantiated by privileging certain (but not all) rhythmic tropes aping the schema of catatonia induced by the crushing effects of late... OK, it's a fair cop. How about Stravinsky's 'How the Toadstools went to War'? Oh no, sorry, that's fungal not fugal, isn't it. |
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« Last Edit: 22:59:42, 27-06-2007 by George Garnett »
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martle
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« Reply #39 on: 22:52:27, 27-06-2007 » |
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George, |
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Green. Always green.
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #40 on: 22:54:57, 27-06-2007 » |
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Who here has a favorite passacaglia or chaconne? I think that's my cue to run out my tired old observation that the Bach Chaconne from the D minor violin partita is almost invariably performed at something just a smidge over half speed. Are there any violinists in the house? Favourite Passacaglie, well, I'm a bit of a stick in the mud myself, give me your Brahms 4 or your Bach C minor and a glass of beer and I'm a very happy Ollie. |
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increpatio
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« Reply #41 on: 23:09:46, 27-06-2007 » |
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My fave passacaglia is probably Beethoven's 32 variations in C minor.
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ahinton
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« Reply #42 on: 23:19:30, 27-06-2007 » |
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A typically fawning and hagiographic faux-explanation of Stravinsky's sickening hebephrenic, psychotic, infantile, unmediated fascism instantiated by privileging certain (but not all) rhythmic tropes aping the schema of catatonia induced by the crushing effects of late...
Not too bad an effort, Sir George; in fact, at least 8 out of 10, I'd say (although, if you'll forgive my mentioning it, you might just have stood some chance of scoring a wee whisker higher had you not forgotten that all-important factor of reificacity...) Best, Alistair (who is now more fugal with his frugues than he used to be)... |
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richard barrett
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« Reply #43 on: 23:44:55, 27-06-2007 » |
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Since Ollie's already come out with his tired observation, here's mine, since the Bartók Music for Strings etc. has been mentioned. I once had the occasion to witness a performance by a mixture of amateurs and students of this piece (in Dartington, where else), in which the music was really some way beyond the capabilities of some of the players, particularly in terms of staying together and in tune with all that divisi in the first movement, so that various parts drifted quite considerably in time and pitch. After a couple of minutes I began to think I couldn't possibly last through the entire piece, but a little bit later I became quite fascinated by the fact that this blurred Bartók sounded exactly like something Ligeti could have written. It reminded me of those famous pictures of fish in D'Arcy Thompson's On Growth and Form where one species of fish can be transformed into a different (but existing!) species by a simple transformation of the picture plane:  ... or, to put it more bluntly, Ligeti really is like Bartók played badly. And talking about fugues that don't really get going, I've often been struck in Handel's fugues by the way he'll get everything running perfactly, and then at a seemingly arbitrary moment decide "that's enough of that malarkey", stick on a perfunctory cadence and bring the fugue to a shuddering end. |
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #44 on: 23:48:14, 27-06-2007 » |
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I've often been struck in Handel's fugues by the way he'll get everything running perfactly, and then at a seemingly arbitrary moment decide "that's enough of that malarkey" Thing is, though, that's basically your standard Baroque approach to the whole fugue business isn't it? Set off a nice jolly texture and then once you've proved you can do it go back to something a bit easier for all concerned... |
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