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Evan Johnson
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« on: 18:08:17, 06-07-2007 » |
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Aaron's ecumenical use of the word "crotchet" in the Sibelius-no-wait-it's-about-Finale thread let me to pose the question which all of a sudden strikes me: when, and why, did British arrive at their rhythmic nomenclature, and does anyone else use it? (All I can remember off the top of my head is the German "Viertel" "Achtel" etc. which obviously aligns with American usage; can't remember the French for some reason).
I, for my part, can never remember what a "crotchet" is supposed to be. I always start off thinking that it's an eighth note, spurred by the "crotch" between the stem and the flag. Then I remember that no, that's actually a quaver, because look how the little flag quavers (except, of course, in the straight-flag Universal Edition scores from the 50s-80s or so...) I do, I must admit, appreciate the stubborn pride of terms like "hemidemisemiquaver," which are too ridiculous for anyone to actually use despite their admirable gumption.
That's all I have to say about that.
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increpatio
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« Reply #1 on: 18:14:19, 06-07-2007 » |
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Crotchet is, indeed, to do with the look (crotchet coming from a word meaning "hook" in this sense, apparently). Quaver, according to oed, comes from quiver (no, not the arrows, pleasant as that would be, more the tremolo-side of things); I guess our terms grew up in the alla breve system :/
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« Last Edit: 18:16:40, 06-07-2007 by increpatio »
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Ron Dough
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« Reply #2 on: 18:18:48, 06-07-2007 » |
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Just goes to show: sometimes we kept the old terminology, sometimes you did: nobody over here uses "gotten" as a past participle, for example...(what's that about two nations divided by a common language?) http://www.music.vt.edu/musicdictionary/textc/Crotchet.html |
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« Last Edit: 18:22:46, 06-07-2007 by Ron Dough »
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #3 on: 18:39:58, 06-07-2007 » |
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Once upon a time the note values were generally rather a lot bigger: longs and breves, long and short. (Quadruple whole-notes and double whole-notes of course. Weren't there also octuple whole-notes once upon a time?) Then over the years everything shifted along the scale until the old 'short' would now be regarded in most circles as exceptionally long.
Crotchet is indeed a misleading word - the French use 'croche' for a quaver, for exactly the reasons Evan mentions. (A semibreve is a 'ronde' or round, a minim 'blanche' or white, a crotchet 'noire' or black, a quaver 'croche' or hook, a semiquaver 'double croche' or double hook and so on.)
I don't have a problem with hemidemisemiquaver, personally. (I hasten to add I don't have a problem with 64th-note either - let's face it, once you get to really short notes the names are pretty cumbersome in both sytems.) I think it's admirably pragmatic: just three different prefixes for 'half' (different ones because otherwise you wouldn't know where you were in the series). We rarely say the whole word - just 'third demi of the fourth beat' or whatever is enough information.
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aaron cassidy
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« Reply #4 on: 19:27:07, 06-07-2007 » |
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We rarely say the whole word - just 'third demi of the fourth beat' or whatever is enough information.
That would've been confusing if this approach had continued (copied from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixteenth_note): In music, a sixteenth note (American or "German" terminology) or semiquaver (also occasionally demiquaver, British or "classical" terminology) is a note played for one sixteenth the duration of a whole note, hence the name. The semiquaver is half of a quaver which is an eighth note.
I'm also rather fond of this tidbit: The note derives from the semifusa in mensural notation. However, semifusa also designates the modern sixty-fourth note in Spanish.
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Evan Johnson
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« Reply #5 on: 19:41:16, 06-07-2007 » |
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In music, a sixteenth note (American or "German" terminology) or semiquaver (also occasionally demiquaver, British or "classical" terminology) is a note played for one sixteenth the duration of a whole note, hence the name. The semiquaver is half of a quaver which is an eighth note.
Yeah, exactly. Who decided on the order of the synonymous prefixes? why not hemidemisemi? or semihemidemi? or... Thanks for the "semifusa"/Spanish tidbit as well. That makes the whole thing that much more entertaining. I take it then "fusa" is Spanish for 32nd note, or semidemi... then what? Any takers? |
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #6 on: 20:03:55, 06-07-2007 » |
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Who decided on the order of the synonymous prefixes? why not hemidemisemi? or semihemidemi? or...
Thanks for the "semifusa"/Spanish tidbit as well. That makes the whole thing that much more entertaining. I take it then "fusa" is Spanish for 32nd note, or semidemi... then what? Any takers?
It is hemidemisemi.  Cuadrada El doble de una redonda Redonda El doble de una blanca Mitad de una cuadrada Blanca El doble de una negra Mitad de una redonda Negra El doble de una corchea Mitad de una blanca Corchea El doble de una semicorchea Mitad de una negra semicorchea El doble de una fusa Mitad de una corchea fusa El doble de una semifusa Mitad de una semicorchea semifusa Mitad de una fusa All clear now? |
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aaron cassidy
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« Reply #7 on: 20:05:31, 06-07-2007 » |
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It's an even funnier problem in Polish: 64th note = sześćdzieśięcioczwórka *giggle* Aaron, sitting thinking, "hm, I don't actually know what a 64th or 128th note is in English English," looks it up on wikipedia and finds this additional layer of befuddlement: Notes shorter than the sixty-fourth note are very rarely used in music, though the hundred twenty-eighth note (otherwise known as the semihemidemisemiquaver or quasihemidemisemiquaver), or even shorter notes, are occasionally found.
(Apparently, Evan, they can't even decide for themselves what the heck it's called or in what order the prefixes appear or even which prefixes to use at all.)    |
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time_is_now
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« Reply #8 on: 20:05:48, 06-07-2007 » |
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I take it then "fusa" is Spanish for 32nd note, or semidemi... It is indeed (demisemi-, though, we call it!). God knows why they decided to start with a new name rather than just piling more prefixes on the quaver. Maybe they couldn't think of any more prefixes! |
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
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time_is_now
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« Reply #9 on: 20:08:46, 06-07-2007 » |
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It's an even funnier problem in Polish:
64th note = sześćdzieśięcioczwórka But that's actually not too difficult, once you know how to read Polish. 'Sześć' simply means 'six' and 'dzieśięc' is 10. Oh. Where's the four? Now I am a bit lost |
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #10 on: 20:12:43, 06-07-2007 » |
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(Apparently, Evan, they can't even decide for themselves what the heck it's called or in what order the prefixes appear or even which prefixes to use at all.) It's perfectly simple.  quaver semiquaver demisemiquaver hemidemisemiquaver and then you start again: semihemidemisemiquaver Anything else you read is antiquated and thus comes from a time when hardly anyone had to deal with semihemidemisemiquavers, much less talk about them. Any more of your lip and we'll bring up buckwheat notation. (Psst - tinners is heading for 1000...) |
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Evan Johnson
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« Reply #11 on: 20:19:30, 06-07-2007 » |
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I take it then "fusa" is Spanish for 32nd note, or semidemi... It is indeed (demisemi-, though, we call it!). God knows why they decided to start with a new name rather than just piling more prefixes on the quaver. Maybe they couldn't think of any more prefixes! Yes, demisemi-. I keep forgetting about the left-hand notation of this process. It's like function composition in abstract algebra. semihemidemisemi-, eh. So maybe Ferneyhough's use of very slow tempi and lots and lots of beams started as just a ploy for more column inches about his work? |
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aaron cassidy
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« Reply #12 on: 20:24:20, 06-07-2007 » |
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It's perfectly simple. And the "quasi"? (And, jeesh, we can't even agree how to pronounce that word! kway-zi?) I'm expecting Ollie any minute now to tell me that in Australian English a 128th note is called a woooloonooogogon. *ducks* |
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #13 on: 20:28:44, 06-07-2007 » |
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And the "quasi"? ...antiquated, as I said. I'm expecting Ollie any minute now to tell me that in Australian English a 128th note is called a woooloonooogogon.
Anything shorter than a quaver is just a bee's dick, mate. |
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time_is_now
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« Reply #14 on: 21:10:37, 06-07-2007 » |
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Psst - tinners is heading for 1000... ... which makes Aaron a demisemitinner and Evan a hemidemisemitinner! And your good self a dotted tinner. With a bit of rubato in each case, of course. |
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
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