|
Ian Pace
|
 |
« Reply #90 on: 13:05:47, 10-07-2007 » |
|
I slept on the Klavierstück VI question last night (good thing I'm not a princess or I'd be bruised all over) and I'm beginning to think that something derived from it might be worth investigating. (For those who don't know this score, it has an extra 13-line "stave" above the usual ones, on which a line indicates changes of tempo (using a "scale" of 13 tempi) and a "full stop" indicates a pause.)
It's also worth bearing in mind that this sliding scale was a later addition to the score - the first version just had the normal metronome markings with accel, rit, etc. I'm not sure whether it was Stockhausen's sole decision to add the scale, or the suggestion of a performer (but can probably find out). |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
|
|
|
|
Kittybriton
|
|
« Reply #91 on: 13:36:58, 10-07-2007 » |
|
Once again, George puts his finger squarely on the point. Ever since I read Oliver's post last night I have been wondering how exactly does one notate a "bee's dick"? Perhaps I shall have to overcome my squeamishness and re-examine the works of Rimsky-Korsakov? |
|
|
|
« Last Edit: 13:54:36, 10-07-2007 by Kittybriton »
|
Logged
|
Click me -> About meor me -> my handmade storeNo, I'm not a complete idiot. I'm only a halfwit. In fact I'm actually a catfish. |
|
|
|
Evan Johnson
|
|
« Reply #92 on: 13:37:51, 10-07-2007 » |
|
While we're on the notation question ... here's something that bugs the snot out of me: notating rhythmic values that are 5 units long. I thoroughly wish that Andriessen's invention of putting the dot to the left of the note/rest (indicating adding 1/4 of the note's/rest's value) had caught on. (I assume this was Andriessen's invention, as it's the only place I've ever seen such a notational device (and it really only appears in a few early-ish pieces), but if anyone knows of prior examples, do let me know.)
Crumb does something similar, if I understand you correctly; he uses a dot before a symbol (although I think Crumb only does it with rests, which makes sense) to mean a subtraction of a quarter of the value, but uses that dot only in conjunction with a regular dot afterwards. So the result is, say, that a quarter (erm, crotchet) rest with dots on both sides is equivalent to five sixteenths' (erm, semiquavers') rest. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
time_is_now
|
|
« Reply #93 on: 14:00:19, 10-07-2007 » |
|
Crumb does something similar, if I understand you correctly; he uses a dot before a symbol (although I think Crumb only does it with rests, which makes sense) to mean a subtraction of a quarter of the value, but uses that dot only in conjunction with a regular dot afterwards. So the result is, say, that a quarter (erm, crotchet) rest with dots on both sides is equivalent to five sixteenths' (erm, semiquavers') rest.
Evan, so what you actually mean is a subtraction of quarter of the original value from a note which has had half the original value added. THAT'S CRAZY!!!  |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
|
|
|
|
Evan Johnson
|
|
« Reply #94 on: 14:11:59, 10-07-2007 » |
|
Crumb does something similar, if I understand you correctly; he uses a dot before a symbol (although I think Crumb only does it with rests, which makes sense) to mean a subtraction of a quarter of the value, but uses that dot only in conjunction with a regular dot afterwards. So the result is, say, that a quarter (erm, crotchet) rest with dots on both sides is equivalent to five sixteenths' (erm, semiquavers') rest.
Evan, so what you actually mean is a subtraction of quarter of the original value from a note which has had half the original value added. THAT'S CRAZY!!! Yes. The operators act independently, which avoids any order of operations problems. It sounds crazy, yes, and it would be, presumably, if he got too into it -- double dots preceding notes with one after, or whatnot. but to the best of my recollection he only uses the one-before-and-one-after configuration, to mean 125% of the "basic" value, and it's actually quite clear. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
thompson1780
|
 |
« Reply #95 on: 16:50:54, 10-07-2007 » |
|
The Finnissey fast dances thing is really interesting and raises loads of thoughts.
I'm sure Brahms wrote out a ritardando in a symphony somewhere by doing a quadruplet going to a triplet to a duplet. Obviously this is not 'continuous' slowing, but it raises the question why he didn't just write "rit".
It seems Finnissey had two hands to cope with, slowing and speeding at different times. But couldn't he just write accel in one hand and rit in the other? And make bar lengths uneven to compensate? Or leave it that bar lines didn't coincide, and just indicate which notes he wanted to coincide?
Did he want to be really precise? Did he want to remove any scope for interpretation in how big the rit and accel were?
And if notation becomes so tricky that only a few can perform your work, is that precision worthwhile? What happens if an unaccomplished performer attempts such a work?
Tommo
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Made by Thompson & son, at the Violin & c. the West end of St. Paul's Churchyard, LONDON
|
|
|
|
increpatio
|
|
« Reply #96 on: 16:59:02, 10-07-2007 » |
|
And if notation becomes so tricky that only a few can perform your work, is that precision worthwhile? What happens if an unaccomplished performer attempts such a work?
 |
|
|
|
« Last Edit: 17:03:49, 10-07-2007 by increpatio »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Ian Pace
|
|
« Reply #97 on: 17:17:07, 10-07-2007 » |
|
The Finnissey fast dances thing is really interesting and raises loads of thoughts.
I'm sure Brahms wrote out a ritardando in a symphony somewhere by doing a quadruplet going to a triplet to a duplet. Obviously this is not 'continuous' slowing, but it raises the question why he didn't just write "rit".
It seems Finnissey had two hands to cope with, slowing and speeding at different times. But couldn't he just write accel in one hand and rit in the other? And make bar lengths uneven to compensate? Well, he does all of those things, and the notated durations are intended to be an approximation of a smooth progression. The use of actual values gives some idea of the overall relative proportions of each beamed group (I would post an example on here, but oughtn't to really, as it's copyright material). Or leave it that bar lines didn't coincide, and just indicate which notes he wanted to coincide? Only a very few notes do coincide - I can only see three times this happens on the score, and those are all at the beginnings of bars. There are only a few bar lines (the bars are very long, though there are no time signatures). Did he want to be really precise? Did he want to remove any scope for interpretation in how big the rit and accel were? No, I don't think so - probably this notational strategy was some type of pre-emptive measure against performers slipping into more familiar and regular patterns, as often happens when such things are notated spatially or in some similar manner. And if notation becomes so tricky that only a few can perform your work, is that precision worthwhile? What happens if an unaccomplished performer attempts such a work? Well, that question could be asked of any work from any period that makes then-unprecedented demands of the performer. In this case it isn't all that tricky, I think, if one thinks in terms of time rather than pulse. That said, it's not an especially noteworthy passage, certainly not if one has heard plenty of his other music from that period in a similar vein. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
|
|
|
|
Chafing Dish
Guest
|
|
« Reply #98 on: 17:19:28, 10-07-2007 » |
|
Kyle Gann adopts Harry Partch's (hope I've attributed this correctly) notation for units of 1.25 length, but I can't remember off the top of my head what that notation is.
Since a double dot is 1/2 plus a 1/4 of the original note value, then one could notate a 1/4 of the original note value by simply omitting the first dot. Failing that, perhaps since 1/4 is 1/2 of 1/2 maybe you just write half a dot. This doesn't seem much worse than a hollow dot, which if you're charitable, is in fact the outer half of a dot. Think outside the box, people! |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
increpatio
|
|
« Reply #99 on: 17:30:25, 10-07-2007 » |
|
Kyle Gann adopts Harry Partch's (hope I've attributed this correctly) notation for units of 1.25 length, but I can't remember off the top of my head what that notation is.
Since a double dot is 1/2 plus a 1/4 of the original note value, then one could notate a 1/4 of the original note value by simply omitting the first dot. Failing that, perhaps since 1/4 is 1/2 of 1/2 maybe you just write half a dot. This doesn't seem much worse than a hollow dot, which if you're charitable, is in fact the outer half of a dot. Think outside the box, people! Half a dot might introduce legibility issues methinks. Hollow dot I'm good for myself. Or how about a coloured dot? Oh yes, I know, colours are the devil &c.. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
aaron cassidy
|
|
« Reply #100 on: 17:53:47, 10-07-2007 » |
|
Since a double dot is 1/2 plus a 1/4 of the original note value, then one could notate a 1/4 of the original note value by simply omitting the first dot.
hahahahahahaha. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
martle
|
|
« Reply #101 on: 17:59:44, 10-07-2007 » |
|
 How about some furries? |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Green. Always green.
|
|
|
|
ahinton
|
|
« Reply #102 on: 18:05:03, 10-07-2007 » |
|
Since a double dot is 1/2 plus a 1/4 of the original note value, then one could notate a 1/4 of the original note value by simply omitting the first dot.
...thereby creating a new version of the old joke about Irish Railways' survey that concluded from past train accident data that the least safe portion of the train to be in was the rear coach, so they took the rear coaches off all Irish trains... Anyway - let he who is without tuplets cast the first dot... Best, Alistair |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Baziron
Guest
|
|
« Reply #103 on: 18:48:12, 10-07-2007 » |
|
Kyle Gann adopts Harry Partch's (hope I've attributed this correctly) notation for units of 1.25 length, but I can't remember off the top of my head what that notation is.
Since a double dot is 1/2 plus a 1/4 of the original note value, then one could notate a 1/4 of the original note value by simply omitting the first dot. Failing that, perhaps since 1/4 is 1/2 of 1/2 maybe you just write half a dot. This doesn't seem much worse than a hollow dot, which if you're charitable, is in fact the outer half of a dot. Think outside the box, people! Half a dot might introduce legibility issues methinks. Hollow dot I'm good for myself. Or how about a coloured dot? Oh yes, I know, colours are the devil &c.. Surely the answer is much simpler folks! - why not just stop using dots altogether, and use tied notes ( always!) instead? Just think of the rhythmic precision that could be achieved by such lateral thinking. Baz |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
increpatio
|
|
« Reply #104 on: 19:29:44, 10-07-2007 » |
|
Kyle Gann adopts Harry Partch's (hope I've attributed this correctly) notation for units of 1.25 length, but I can't remember off the top of my head what that notation is.
Since a double dot is 1/2 plus a 1/4 of the original note value, then one could notate a 1/4 of the original note value by simply omitting the first dot. Failing that, perhaps since 1/4 is 1/2 of 1/2 maybe you just write half a dot. This doesn't seem much worse than a hollow dot, which if you're charitable, is in fact the outer half of a dot. Think outside the box, people! Half a dot might introduce legibility issues methinks. Hollow dot I'm good for myself. Or how about a coloured dot? Oh yes, I know, colours are the devil &c.. Surely the answer is much simpler folks! - why not just stop using dots altogether, and use tied notes ( always!) instead? Just think of the rhythmic precision that could be achieved by such lateral thinking. Baz Oh fie no! Such things would make music with more than one line per staff unreadable in a lot of cases :/ Why not just notate everything in tied hemidemisemiquavers? (possibly with the odd tuplet)  |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
