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autoharp
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« on: 21:47:53, 16-07-2007 » |
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The solo at the beginning of Mahler 7 is, if I remember rightly, scored for Bb baritone horn (= German Tenorhorn - German Althorn = Eb tenor horn). Is it usually played on a euphonium ? If so why ? As an occasional baritone horn player, I'm aware more of the differences between the two instruments than the similarities. They're exactly the same pitch of course, but there is a world of difference in the sound and whereas there are several examples of memorable euphonium usage in the chamber + orchestral repertoire (eg Holst Planets, Janacek Capriccio, Strauss Don Quixote, Stravinsky Rite of Spring), I can't think of any other baritone horn moments (outside of military or wind band repertoire).
From a player's point of view there's another big difference - playing a euphonium feels lungwise like playing a tuba, whereas the baritone (and tenor) horn feels more like a french horn. So a rap over the knuckles from me to Igor for getting horns 7 + 8 in the Rite to double on euphoniums.
Any thoughts, anyone ?
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richard barrett
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« Reply #1 on: 21:56:22, 16-07-2007 » |
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I believe there's some dispute as to the instrument Mahler actually had in mind for the first movement of the 7th, and, unless I dreamed it, someone here or at TOP once posted a link to some research on the subject. However I have a fairly clear sound-image in my head as to how I like it to sound, which you'd probably describe as more tuba- than horn-like (Abbado's Chicago recording is the closest to what I have in mind). I hear it as mediating in timbre between horns and trombones in that movement. I would tend to agree that asking horn players to play euphonia is a bit naughty. Do they ever actually do this, I wonder? In fact I don't remember (or never knew) where they're supposed to do it, and my score isn't to hand.
What a pointless post. Sorry. I guess my answer to your closing question is "er, it seems not".
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Tony Watson
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« Reply #2 on: 21:56:52, 16-07-2007 » |
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According to Norman del Mar's book A Companion to the Orchestra, the use of a euphonium instead of a baritone for the beginning of Mahler's 7th is a British tradition. "An uncomfortable experience," he says, adding that the baritone should always be used because the euphonium copes less well with the upper register. He also advises against using a tenor tuba.
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autoharp
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« Reply #3 on: 22:39:43, 16-07-2007 » |
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Thanks for those replies. Rchard, your post was far from pointless !
Tony - a tenor tuba IS a euphonium and both eupho + baritone horn can get as high as each other, so that shouldn't be a problem.
As a by the way, at the most obvious place in the Rite where euphoniums are used, bass tubas are in unison (area just above middle C). Silly old Igor . . .
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Tony Watson
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« Reply #4 on: 23:00:21, 16-07-2007 » |
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I'm no brass player, as you've no doubt realized, autoharp, but I was just repeating what I had read and perhaps I didn't understand it properly. Del Mar's book does have separate entries on the euphonium and the tenor tuba, though, which is confusing for me. He does say at one point that the instruments are "analogous" which I took to mean similar but not identical. (He also says that it was the lesser agility of the euphonium that makes the baritone preferable, not the range.) Then there are tenor tubas in Wagner, which are surely Wagner tubas. My head's starting to spin...
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« Last Edit: 09:19:00, 17-07-2007 by Tony Watson »
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autoharp
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« Reply #5 on: 09:13:33, 17-07-2007 » |
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Tony - your mention of Wagner tubas got me thinking. A bit of googling came up with the suggestion that Holst (Planets), Stravinsky (Rite) and Strauss (Don Quixote) originally wrote their parts for Wagner tubas. These instruments actually use horn mouthpieces - conventionally they were played (doubled) by horn players, so of course the Stravinsky doubling in the Rite of Spring makes perfect sense ! Intriguingly one source I found stated that Mahler decided against the use of Wagner tubas . . .
One surprise for me was the suggestion that Holst, given his experience of the military band, wrote the solo in Mars for a Wagner tuba. Wagner tubas sound pretty much like baritones horns to me whereas the euphonium has a distinctive colourful and far less anonymous tone colour. If asked to name an orchestral solo which was particularly suited for a euphonium sound, I'd have gone for Mars every time !
So I'm beginning to think that euphoniums have often been used in the orchestra either because Wagner tubas weren't available, or because the score simply stated "tenor tuba" which as far as many of us are concerned means euphonium. And, er, this means that most, if not all performances of the Rite use the wrong instruments (!) I'll do some further research . . .
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« Last Edit: 09:38:13, 17-07-2007 by autoharp »
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Bryn
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« Reply #6 on: 09:22:53, 17-07-2007 » |
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Intriguingly one source I found stated that Mahler decided against the use of Mahler tubas . . .
Do tell us more about these here "Mahler tubas", autohharp.  |
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Tony Watson
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« Reply #7 on: 09:35:13, 17-07-2007 » |
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So I'm beginning to think that euphoniums have often been used in the orchestra either because Wagner tubas weren't available, or because the score simply stated "tenor tuba" which as far as many of us are concerned means euphonium. To add to the confusion, I wrote tenor horn in number 4 when I meant tenor tuba and I've changed it now! According to another book, Wagner tubas weren't generally available outside Germany until the 1930s. The French used a type of saxhorn until then and the British used whatever they thought might be the closest thing. I find it odd that Mahler, who writes so many instructions in his scores, left the type of instrument he had in mind for his 7th symphony ambiguous. |
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autoharp
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« Reply #8 on: 09:39:29, 17-07-2007 » |
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Intriguingly one source I found stated that Mahler decided against the use of Mahler tubas . . .
Do tell us more about these here "Mahler tubas", autohharp. Previous post modified. Thanks for that Bhryn ! |
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marbleflugel
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« Reply #9 on: 11:32:23, 17-07-2007 » |
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The Holst point is very interesting. Perhaps he had an eye to European performances, or the Double Eagle connotations (for all his protestations that
the 'war' symbolism wasnt to be taken literally, but as...a state of collective mind?).
A good buddy of mine wrote a full-blooded Euphonium Concerto a few years back and it reveals how well it projects and contrasts against a full orchestra. It even won over a few blue rinses. The 'Baritone' these days is simply the US parlance for the same instrument, though over there, as in Germany,the bore is traditionally narrower and the tone more pungent, as per Marching bands etc.
A good source in these matters is Cliff Bevan's "Background Brass" (ex tubist RLPO)
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'...A celebrity is someone who didn't get the attention they needed as an adult'
Arnold Brown
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autoharp
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« Reply #10 on: 12:59:32, 17-07-2007 » |
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A couple of hours research has confirmed what a can of worms this all is. Available information is contradictory and general understanding is/has been confused - including my own. Here are a few conclusions . . .
Wagner tubas. Apart from Wagner, parts written by Bruckner (Symphonies 8 + 9), Schoenberg (Gurrelieder), Strauss (Don Quixote, Heldenleben, Elektra, Alpine symphony - but not after 1919) and other Austro-Germans. Also Stravinsky (Firebird, Rite of Spring). They're often doubled by (french) horn players since the mouthpieces are the same. I'd say that using euphoniums in the Rite is probably incorrect (more research to arrive on this) and this error is a result of scores which feature the words "tenor tuba" which to musicians in UK at least means euphonium. So I imagine there are quite a few works which end up using an "inappropriate" instrument. Having said that, Strauss authorised a euphonium for Heldenleben after the Wagner tuba player found it too difficult (can't really see why the part should be more possible on one instrument than another at the moment) and was so taken with the change that he used euphonium for Don Quixote as well.
NB A Wagner tuba is not a tuba: a euphonium is.
Euphoniums. They're tenor tubas. I was wrong about the Holst in a previous post. It's a genuine euphonium part, as are parts by Bax (Overture to a picaresque comedy), Havergal Brian (symphonies), Van Dieren (Diafony), Holbrooke - all English or at least resident in England. However, performances of The Planets or the Janacek Sinfonietta which take place in Vienna (!) tend to use Wagner tubas.
Baritone horns. They're not tubas either but saxhorns. (so, Marbleflugel, I'm dubious when you post that the "baritone . . is simply the US parlance for the same instrument (ie euphonium)". Perhaps our American colleagues will confirm that, as in Germany, alto horn (US)/althorn = UK Eb tenor horn (Hindemith wrote a sonata for it) and tenor horn (US)/tenorhorn = UK Bb baritone horn (ie the one featured in Mahler 7). Alan Hovhaness wrote a baritone horn concerto in the 1960s - which despite its virtuosity + high range, definitely seemed written for baritone (hope my memory's right). What instrument is intended in Roy Harris' symphonies ?
There are still several mysteries as far as I'm concerned. What instruments did Janacek write for in the Sinfonietta and Capriccio ? Commentators seem a little coy on this one although it seems they were definitely not Wagner tubas, despite the Viennese habit. Different countries seem to have their own versions of some or all of these instruments. So Mussorgsky's Bydlo in the Ravel version was written for a specifically French wide-bore euphonium in C - mad to substitute a bass tuba (as some do) since it goes so high. Flicorno, which I always thought was Italian for saxhorn, turns out to be a specifically Italian band instrument. Serbian brass bands (probably gypsy-inspired) contain instruments which certainly resemble Wagner tubas - and some say they are.
I've not seen Clifford Bevan's book, but I've been surprised that some instrument experts (eg Baines) seem to add rather than subtract from the confusion.
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« Last Edit: 13:05:02, 17-07-2007 by autoharp »
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richard barrett
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« Reply #11 on: 13:16:47, 17-07-2007 » |
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This is all very interesting. Maybe what follows isn't but I'm going to say it anyway. In my own last piece for orchestra I asked two of the four horns to change to Wagner tubas, if available (one in Bb and one in F) for a brass+percussion passage just before the end, thinking that they could add a certain darkness and weight to the sonority as well as a further differentiation within the ensemble. In the first performance they weren't available, but I had the impression that the horn players in question played as if they had the Wagner tuba sound in mind, so that the result was nothing to complain about, even though I suspect that one of the main differences to the listener would have been the fact that the bells of Wagner tubas point up and forward instead of backward. For my next attempt to paddle across the shark-infested waters of the orchestra I've been offered six horns, four of whom can double on Wagner tubas, so I'll have a chance to see if I was right.
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autoharp
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« Reply #12 on: 13:27:16, 17-07-2007 » |
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Richard - I've read that double Wagner tubas in F/Bb are around these days. Trouble is I've never played one. You could try contacting Gavin Bryars (he's written Wagner tuba parts) - he'd probably have something intelligent to say.
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richard barrett
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« Reply #13 on: 13:30:12, 17-07-2007 » |
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I'd have to find out if the orchestra in question has them first, but it seems a logical thing to make.
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